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Author Topic: New "crossover" schematic and diagram  (Read 58418 times)
Ed Schilling
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« Reply #165 on: October 19, 2013, 01:19:45 PM »

Tre', I think some confusion exists because it seems the operation has been described slightly differently by different folks. Hell, I've read in the past there is no "air squeezing" happening!

We need a real diaphragm to  examine. I'd like to see the path of the conductors. That will show everything.
Ed
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Steve F
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« Reply #166 on: October 19, 2013, 02:38:12 PM »

Ed & Tre, I looked all over for polar response charts which would be definitive. I only found one in which the back wave was damped. You would think that somebody would have made thorough measurements!

I asked Albert Van Schweikert and Nelson Pass who both worked for Dr. Heil years ago. Pass did not respond, but I did find an article by him stating the driver is a dipole. Albert graciously replied, and confirmed dipole operation.

I believe the main point of confusion, and it sure as hell confused me, is the shape and action of the diaphragm. I don't think the original patent submission was very clear. I thought it operated as a bipole until I took one apart. Heil's patent 4,056,697 has good views of the diaphragm shape and hinge action.

I look at the driver as a group of tweeters operating together. Since the waveform dispersion is exactly as Tre states, there is a seamless blend, low distortion, and good efficiency. A fascinating driver.

Steve
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Tre
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« Reply #167 on: October 19, 2013, 03:17:55 PM »

This is from the 1977 patent.



"Thus it can be seen that a current flowing through conductors 46 will produce forces on diaphragms 10 to cause alternate diaphragms to move toward and away from each other. For example, a flow of current in one direction would cause diaphragms 10a and 10b to move toward each other, diaphragms 10b and 10c to move away from each other, and diaphragms 10c and 10d to move toward each other. An oppositely flowing current through conductors 46 would cause diaphragms 10a and 10b to move away from each other, diaphragms 10b and 10c to move toward each other and diaphragms 10c and 10d to move away from each other. Thus an alternating current through conductor 46 would result in vibrations of planar diaphragms 10 which would result in air being pushed out of one side of folded diaphragm 40 while simultaneously being pulled in from the other side of folded diaphragm 40."

I think that says it all.

It's a dipole.

Tre'
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 08:00:17 AM by Tre » Logged
Ed Schilling
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« Reply #168 on: October 20, 2013, 09:42:22 AM »

Tre', good job. I'm stubborn but not deaf and blind Smiley That's what I wanted to see. I'm horrible at finding things on the web. Thanks for clearing it up. That is a good explanation and explains it's not just "squeezing air like an accordion". That description makes it perfectly clear and the first time I've ever seen the method of operation described that way. Thanks for taking the time to find it.
Ed
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Tre
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« Reply #169 on: October 20, 2013, 11:07:40 AM »

You're welcome Ed and thanks again, to you and Steve, for putting up with my stubbornness.

I should have fully researched this whole issue before spouting off.

BTW, I'm really enjoying my Great Heil AMTs. I've adjusted the crossover and pad, as well as adding a Zobel network for the JBL 2118J midrange to get it a little more "out of the way" of the Heil.

This is the best my system has ever sounded.

The high frequencies of the Heil disperse so well that the imaging of the system, as a whole, has improved greatly. The speed of the Heil is also heard as a vast improvement over the Morel MDT33.

I love this hobby!


Tre'
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 11:40:06 AM by Tre » Logged
Ed Schilling
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« Reply #170 on: October 20, 2013, 02:57:15 PM »

Tre' stubborn is not the right word. Persistent is a better one. Based on so many descriptions I was convinced it was (had to be) a bipole, that and the fact I'd built the damn things from scratch! Hell, just the other day Steve and I were discussing it. Told him I did not care what anyone said, we need "proof" and an explanation. Thanks for getting!
Ed
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2wo
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« Reply #171 on: October 20, 2013, 06:14:47 PM »

Just to throw some more gas on. The the way the magnetic field is shown in the last dig. does not seem right. I can't detect a clear N or S pole at any edge of the diaphragm. It looks to me as each pole piece has a N S on ether side running in the vertical direction.

 I don't have a flux meter any more but if you take a magnet (not too strong!), with a clearly defined N and S, end and explore you will see what I mean...John   
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"...there was a knock on the door and a voice shouted "Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms" and I thought it was a delivery"
Steve F
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« Reply #172 on: October 20, 2013, 10:00:59 PM »

I think the magnetic poles in the image are just there to denote the diaphragm operates in a magnetic field.

And boy does it ever! When I first started cleaning up a pair of Heils rescued from a beat up pair of AMT 1 speakers, I had placed a watch on the same table with them. The next morning, the watch was stuck to one of the Heils, and completely magnetized. I didn't like that watch anyway.  Roll Eyes

Steve
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Tre
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« Reply #173 on: October 21, 2013, 08:22:46 AM »

The patent is clear about what it is showing.

"Folded diaphragm 40 is located between the north and south poles of permanent magnet 42 with the planar axis 38 of each planar diaphragm 10 parallel to the magnetic lines of force 44. "

Here's it is in some context,

"In FIG. 3, folded diaphragm 40 comprises a plurality of generally parallel, spaced apart, generally elongated planar diaphragms 10a, 10b, 10c, 10d, etc., defining a plurality of adjacent narrow air spaces and with each planar diaphragm adapted to move in a direction perpendicular to the planar axis 38a, 38b, 38c, etc., of each diaphragm 10.

For convenience, when referring to all diaphragms 10a, 10b, 10c 10d, etc., the suffix letter will not be used.

Folded diaphragm 40 is located between the north and south poles of permanent magnet 42 with the planar axis 38 of each planar diaphragm 10 parallel to the magnetic lines of force 44. Conductors 46 are attached to diaphragms 10, namely, conductor 46a attached to diaphragm 10a, conductor 46b attached to diaphragm 10b, conductor 46c attached to diaphragm 10c, etc. with each conductor serially connected to its adjacent conductor so that an electric current will flow in opposite directors with respect to adjacent planar diaphragms. Thus it can be seen that a current flowing through conductors 46 will produce forces on diaphragms 10 to cause alternate diaphragms to move toward and away from each other."

A link to the patent, http://www.google.com.br/patents/US4056697



Tre'
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666MadeMeDoIt
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« Reply #174 on: October 25, 2018, 07:41:12 PM »

I thought this was a great image showing the construction of the Heil. It has a nice image of the action of the pleats. It also shows the layout and relationship of the diaphragm and magnets.
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