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Author Topic: speakers on a board........  (Read 4114 times)
Bbakertx
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« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2015, 01:57:31 PM »

Also, I've learned quite a bit from Martin Kings OB equations/calculations.  Excellent work that he has given back to the audio community.

Sheeple out!
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Henry
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« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2015, 02:40:38 PM »

Let's take our tin foil and be cool.  We're all good.  Mama said.  Grin
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2015, 03:16:37 PM »

Brad, I'm pretty sure you are not sheeple Wink Your builder did you a favor! The rest of the post is NOT, NOT, NOT directed at you! Or anyone in particular Smiley, well except MJK or Brines Smiley

 MJK has done a lot of work for people. I do not agree at all with some of it.  I reckon he has posted the equations......if you have them you should post them! I am pretty sure I infuriated him many years ago when I said something like, "I'm sure that if I use your math to design a single driver speaker it will closely follow the model, the problem is that it will suck." The  statement was true. I had built speakers that would have followed his models decades earlier. I have a "little" more experience in actually building shit than he did at the time and even now.  Most of Kings work is not actually new and the stuff that is .......well...............next paragraph is an example......

Bob Brines uses his work to design his speakers, or did at one time. Brines made a post on a forum "Why single driver speakers can't play "Metal". He then described, without even realizing it,  the flaws associated with using TL theory (although he did not realize he was explaining why his speakers are seriously flawed) in a single driver design and why his can't play "Metal". UH, maybe you should not have done that! Bass extension means nothing if the thing can't play at realistic volumes or has excessive excursion (which means distortion, at moderate or high spl), that is the compromise you chose to make. I knew better. A speaker with 6-8 inch drivers that is over 30 inches tall that can not play "Metal". JFC.

When I pointed out the fact that HIS can't because he's designed them using methods that should be used for bass drivers only he too got pissed. He had made a blanket statement on a public forum and then gets pissed when called on it, a statement that is and was totally wrong and it pissed me off. He had placed all single driver systems in his soiled little sandbox.  Just because his can't, does not mean he has a clue about all others. In this thread it just happened that a DEALER from NC had been at my house a week earlier, saw the thread and posted   "I heard Metalica, Enter Sand Man in Ed's room at well over 105 peaks at the couch. He was called a "shill" and a "liar".

Like I said, Just go to a forum hosted by someone who sells drivers for SOAB's and complete systems and simply ask for the formulas to determine bass cancellation freq. for a given baffle size. See what you get.

Then remember, I could tell you if I felt inclined.

Then ask me what The Horns are and why.........I'm not saying they are "the best", but I can describe in detail how they operate and why!
Ed





« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 03:22:09 PM by Ed Schilling » Logged
Steve F
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« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2015, 04:31:14 PM »

Oh boy,
I always found the concept of using a shallow xmas single driver with a fairly high fs in a TL or vented box in an attempt to get bass as an exercise in futility. Hoffman, of KLH fame, said you can build for high efficiency, small box size, or low bass. Pick any two. For example, I've built a two way speaker using a pro mid woofer. 95DB efficiency. The box is about 0.8 cu ft. Low bass? Forgetaboutit! 65HZ is the lower limit. They take something like a Lowther, and manage to kill its performance. So yeah Ed, I get where you're coming from.
steve

Edit: I've sat in Ed's room too, listening at about 105DB peaks. How do I know? I was holding the SPL meter. Think about that. We're talking in room live jazz band levels here.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 10:49:26 PM by Steve F » Logged
Steve F
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« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2015, 08:32:14 AM »

On the other hand, I have listened to OB speakers that could play loud. Distortion levels seem to go up though. This is just observation, no measurements. Bass is less room interactive with OB. It's better, well deeper and more even, when there are sides to the baffle.

The best, most tactile bass I've ever experienced, came from three different types of systems.
Transmission lines sound great, especially when equalization is judiciously applied.
Servo controlled systems in sealed boxes work well.
Horn loaded bass is the most lifelike dynamic. The downside is the size of the system required. I believe that even Klipschorns only do about 40HZ.

I know OB servo systems exist. I haven't listened to one yet.
Most vented systems aren't very good.
Acoustic Suspension systems have uneven bass response. If you can use them in a narrow range, they'll do very well. The bucket subs are a good example. Bag End pro systems are another.

My Linkwitz speakers are basically OB. They're good. Something is missing though. SL has since replaced them. The funny thing is I prefer the older system. This might be me. I'm too used to his prior system. I've got this idea of tearing the Linkwitz Orion system down, and rebuilding them based on new design information. The drivers were very expensive, and I'd hate to let them sit on shelves.

Ed's Horns are really a clever design. A lot of you know that. I just wonder, if as good as they are, they could be made even better with a new longer throw driver intended for bass duties. Ed has circumvented this of course. The Buckets do that. If somebody, Ed, would set up a 3 way electronic crossover, preferably digital, very few speaker systems would be better.

I'll run by some OB high frequency issues later.

 steve
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2015, 08:58:57 AM »

Steve,
You were right about the electronic xover. The Horns in their highest performance iteration uses just that. But no EQ. Is  needed.

My system and the current setup  is about as good as it can get with the Horns. It  is The Horns, with the Great Heil using an electronic xover (Boozhound Laboratories, very good) and 4- Amp Camp amps. The subs are 2 FFRS Mark 420:i hidden in the room behind stuff, in the correct spot.

It's a finished design.....the xover freq. has not changed since I settled on it. Of course different amps and xover could be used but by using the ACA's everything is matched. Th BHL xover is plenty good enough. I will not be switching anything for the foreseeable future.

I do have something in the works..... top secret..... I can't mention names yet... we are still in early planning/design. I think it will be a surprise to a lot of folks Smiley I hope it all comes together. This will not be a "product" for the Horn Shoppe. I may not even be attached to it by name, if my buddy has any sense at all! Smiley I built something similar >25 years ago. It was fantastic but a little too big for me to ship . We are going to work around that!
Ed
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 12:14:04 PM by Ed Schilling » Logged
Steve F
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« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2015, 10:03:54 AM »

Ed, I never took it down. I'm just surprised that nobody is talking up  the subject further. I'll let the topic sink in a bit. All I was going to do was write a bit  about design problems with soab high frequencies. Hell, I haven't bit anyone in a couple of months.

I do hope you plan to post just a hint about the other design. And tell your buddy he is better off keeping a well known cranky redneck, out of the info.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 10:09:26 AM by Steve F » Logged
johnnycopy
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« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2015, 11:04:54 PM »

Steve,
You were right about the electronic xover. The Horns in their highest performance iteration uses just that. But no EQ. Is  needed.

My system and the current setup  is about as good as it can get with the Horns. It  is The Horns, with the Great Heil using an electronic xover (Boozhound Laboratories, very good) and 4- Amp Camp amps. The subs are 2 FFRS Mark 420:i hidden in the room behind stuff, in the correct spot.

It's a finished design.....the xover freq. has not changed since I settled on it. Of course different amps and xover could be used but by using the ACA's everything is matched. Th BHL xover is plenty good enough. I will not be switching anything for the foreseeable future.

I do have something in the works..... top secret..... I can't mention names yet... we are still in early planning/design. I think it will be a surprise to a lot of folks Smiley I hope it all comes together. This will not be a "product" for the Horn Shoppe. I may not even be attached to it by name, if my buddy has any sense at all! Smiley I built something similar >25 years ago. It was fantastic but a little too big for me to ship . We are going to work around that!
Ed

How about a hint Ed, speakers, electronics, a full system, what?
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Steve F
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« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2015, 01:36:38 PM »

While we're waiting for Ed to drop a few hints....

My system, which was down for a couple of weeks is back up and running. Digital crossovers can be a pain in the a&&, but when they are dialed in wow!

I built a speaker on a board using the approved rectangular baffle, an Eminence woofer and fostex which was from the Horns before Ed went to the en version. I'm trying to be honest and not piss anyone off, really. I'm pretty sure Linkwitz is right and most of the rest of the builders are wrong. 1st, you can get decent bass, but some sort of equalization is necessary if you want good dynamic bass. Just putting a woofer in a baffle, especially a plain board doesn't work well. You lose too much, efficiency, and dynamics. Not to mention low bass. That means a digital electronic crossover. You can go analog, at some loss of quiet and ease of adjustability. Passive crossovers are becoming passé unless a very simple one will work.

Back to the baffle. I'm finding that there are very different needs for different frequencies. You would think that if you build the baffle big for the bass driver, the mid and treble drivers would be fine. No, there are wave propagation issues. I just started cutting away baffle bits from the midrange to make things work, but I couldn't get it right. I made it a three way, better, but using dynamics a 4 way would be better. Even using Heils, the real ones, I think you would need some kind of mid bass coupler. I'm not saying a soab won't work, but it's sure not going to be easy. Mine are going in the fire pit.

steve

« Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 01:38:59 PM by Steve F » Logged
johnnycopy
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« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2015, 10:52:54 PM »

Wait a second Ed, is this something you are going to patent!!!!!!  Smiley
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