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Author Topic: Plus Heil  (Read 8165 times)
Ed Schilling
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« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2014, 09:23:56 PM »

See Steve, I tried to warn  him there would be folks like you Smiley (and me). That is, guys that actually will not stop until they get to the bottom of things once their curiosity is piqued. 

I did not start this mess , but if you are going to poke a Honey Badger and you know in advance he is in fact a Honey Badger you may get what you "asked for".

The performance of the Great Heil is well known and documented. When a fellow starts to bash an icon and claim he's got a better version that outperforms it he damn well better be able to prove it. In this case that is simply not happening, the only "proof" is that he says so. There is not one bit of real evidence to back his claims of superiority. Period.

Again, I could care less, I tried to warn him, but he brought it out in the open as if I "started something". He even said "this has been brewing a while". That was news to me! It started brewing for me when I realized he was bashing the Great Heil and saying things which were misleading at best and simply wrong.

So....he says that his driver is patented.......well........is it too much trouble to prove it? I'm sure the answer is "I don't have to prove anything to anybody" . Translation..."shit, they caught me".

I call Bullshit. It will be very easy to get me to say "Damn, I'm sorry, you really do have a patented inferior driver, don't you". Smiley
Ed

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Steve F
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« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2014, 07:49:37 AM »

So what is his patent number?

Steve

Correction: in a previous post I mentioned a patent by Mundorf. The source I read erroneously stated that the patent was for magnet structure. I found the patent. It refers to the diaphragm structure.   I also found a patent by Cerwinski et al (Cerwin Vega) which appears to be about folded diaphragms for compression drivers and not related, but interesting.

US Patent 8208678 issued Jan 26, 2012 to Mundorf
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 08:26:52 AM by Steve F » Logged
Ed Schilling
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« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2014, 08:39:31 AM »

Steve, he posted a link to "Jeff's Review". In that review his description says "
Quote
This is a patented driver and is not a rebadge of any existing driver.
.

I think you should ask that question over there, since I can not find any new patents for AMT's....and I'm not the only one looking.

So, is that a "misstatement", bullshit, or a lie? I do not know. Sure would be easy to clear up though, now wouldn't it? Smiley

How is this fellas......who ever finds the actual patent and if it turns out to be "real"....and you find it on your own......I will build you a butchered Naked Truth. By "butchered" I mean a shitty whatever I have laying around box and spare parts. BUT......it will work perfectly and you can always make it pretty!

You must come by it through research! If he gives the number up it does not count!

Those that know me know I NEVER gamble, but I'll bet. I bet I do not have to give away a NT!

I think it impossible that driver has a patent.

Ed
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Henry
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« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2014, 09:12:07 AM »

Here's a couple of guesses...

US20130301865 A1: Wide-range, wide-angle loudspeaker driver
"The present invention solves the numerous problems, of related art, which include limited vertical and horizontal dispersion, limited low-frequency cut-off, and limited maximum power handling capacity, through the introduction of a novel and extremely effective curved diaphragm geometry, which allows for several substantial improvements, such as unlimited horizontal dispersion of sound, which is uniform at up to 360 degrees at all audio frequencies, and allows for greatly improved vertical dispersion at high audio frequencies, and which also allows for a much deeper low frequency cut-off, which can be several octaves lower than that in related art, and also allows for much higher maximum power handling capacity, which can be several times higher than the power handling capacity in related art."


That sounds like a familiar description.  Wink
There seem to be quite a few for AMT implementation, not quite the same as patents for the AMT itself.
US20110158445 A1: Dipole loudspeaker with acoustic waveguide
US8208678 B2: Membrane or membrane configuration for an electrodynamic sound transducer, and loudspeaker comprising such a membrane or membrane configuration
US6111970 A: Suspension for high power pleated ribbon transducer
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 09:35:57 AM by Henry » Logged
Henry
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« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2014, 09:37:27 AM »

Can't wait to get my new NT.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2014, 10:02:17 AM »

Henry, close but I think he implied the driver itself was patented and "not a rebadge of an existing driver".

That's what I'm after, whether or not there is a patent on the driver itself, as implied!

I won't weasel out the offer if in fact there is a "patented driver that is not a rebadge of an existing driver".

Keep in mind it is said to be an "AMT" not a ribbon or ribbon variation.

Smiley
Ed

I'll look over the stuff you posted later....really busy right now!
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2014, 10:46:33 AM »

Just so we are all on the same page. When Tre' showed the patents for the Great Heil and when we were able to read the description it was quite obvious it operates unlike other "amt" type drivers.

Now, if someone comes along and claims to have a much better driver capable of much better things isn't it reasonable to ask how it's possible? The fact it is bigger would change things in several directions. Going lower would have to be done with greater surface area or greater excursion both of which would not be conducive to better transient response or high freq. reproduction. I have measured the Heils and can prove their response is flat past 20K, which is beyond anything on redbook cd.

When I make claims about performance I can usually back them up with actual data or show where the specs. can be found.

Claiming that the mystery driver has lower distortion, broader response, higher sensitivity is all well and good. However as a guy that does understand just a little and been around a while and is also capable of making mistakes, I'd like to know exactly how this magic is made!

If there truly is a driver that exceeds the performance of the Great Heil in all areas then that would be a magnificent achievement.  Unless it shares a similar magnet structure it will not have the dispersion pattern of course.

Actually looking at the patents and the design will tell it all. Again, these are not my words they are from a "review"......
Quote
“This ribbon is an AMT style driver which succeeded the original Heil AMT drivers. The originator of our driver actually worked with Mr. Heil for about 7 years prior to his death in 94. Our driver has been highly refined, redesigned to work with the horn and has response down to 500 Hz in our design. This is a patented driver and is not a rebadge of any existing driver. The only thing it still shares in common with the original Heil AMT is that they both use thin film elements and arrange them in an AMT style configuration. The original Heil is basically unchanged in the last 30 years where as this driver has been updated and advanced in performance considerably relative where it started out, which for those of you that are familiar with Heil drivers … is not too shabby a place to have come from.”

Now, read all that a couple times.........
Quote
"This ribbon is an AMT style driver which succeeded the original Heil AMT drivers. The originator of our driver actually worked with Mr. Heil for about 7 years prior to his death in 94. "

Ok, that was 20 years ago......soooooo......if it was so great and succeeded the Great Heil........should be easy enough to find one or the name of the fellow who worked with Dr. Heil and get the skinny on this driver. Good luck.

So, is it a ribbon or an AMT....they are not the same thing. It
Quote
"succeeded the the original AMT style configuration".

Ok, then, where can I buy one?

So there you go, is it a patented "AMT" or not. Is it a ribbon or an AMT? Why has no one heard of them before?

Simply allowing us to read the patent on the driver, if there is one, will explain everything and maybe Tre' can decipher it for us simple folk. Not kidding Smiley

See, how this all goes? I have NEVER claimed the Great Heil is better than the mystery driver....I have said the mystery driver can not possibly have the dispersion pattern (never said it was better or worse either, just that no other AMT can have the same pattern). I have also said the performance of the Great Heil is well known and documented and improper implementation of it is rampant and leads to erroneous conclusions. They are not fragile and used properly are one of the best "midrange" driver available.

The mystery driver was compared to them publicly. So now I am saying "prove it". Show us how it is possible. We don't take your word for it, well at least I don't!

I remember once there was a tiny speaker billed as "the worlds smallest horn with 30 hz response that doesn't need to be stuffed into a corner".

I wonder how all that worked out? Bet they sold a million of them.
Ed



« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 05:28:01 PM by Ed Schilling » Logged
Steve F
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« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2014, 11:54:52 AM »

Oh man.  Roll Eyes  Yeah Ed, I suspect that there isn't anything revolutionary going on here. As far as I can tell skimming through the Mundorf patent, the difference is that the "suspension" varies in each. Heil's has a hinge; Mundorf's has ribs. The big question is does it matter? I haven't seen any other changes by others that might prove significant.

And yeah this is like the "world's smallest horn" on another site. I am not a member on the current site in question. So somebody please ask for the patent number of the new device. I call BS too.

Steve
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Steve F
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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2014, 09:33:53 AM »

Ed,

Just stirring the pot a little bit. Has anyone found a patent for the mystery driver? Has the mystery designer ever surfaced? I couldn't find anything about major improvements concerning Heil/AMT drivers. The Mundorf patent for diaphragms was really all that was out there. And that did not fundamentally change how AMT's operate.

The distinguished alums of Dr. Heil include Nelson Pass and Albert VonSchweikert. Both run their own companies. I'm certain that either isn't the mystery scientist who designed an exclusive technology for one cottage sized manufacturer.

Everyone please realize that Ed isn't picking on the other guy. Neither am I. If there is something new out there say so. Let peer review examine it to further the art. If it's the real deal, apply for a patent.

Examples of guys doing it right: Bruce Rozenblit at Transcendent Sound. He published his work, got a patent, and allows DIY use of his design. Nelson Pass, who has contributed greatly to both DIY and the continuing education of the audio community. Siegfried Linkwitz. His site is a treasure trove of audio related information.

Steve

 
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2014, 06:34:10 PM »

Here are some pics Michael (Cidermill1) sent me that he tried to post. I think they  work if you log in.
Ed
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bb1959
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« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2014, 04:49:57 AM »

As someone who is a customer of both of these fine gentlemen, wanted to stick my nose in here: Angry

When I don't have the opportunity to hear something first hand, I rely on the opinions of those I trust.
Ed feels that the Great Heil can't be bettered, no matter what, ever.
The other guy feels like his driver is better than the Heil.
Appears to be a matter of opinion at this point.....but that's just MY opinion.

In this case, I don't have the easy chance to hear EITHER, much less both, so I'm kinda stuck.
I've seen the Great Heil sensitivity stated at 92db at Partsexpress, but up to 98db in some other places.

For how I want to use it, either will most likely be a good fit for me.  I am playing it safe and using a cheaper driver (Dayton AMT Pro 4) until I get the chance to at least hear one of these.


BBakertx

I'm in Houston also.  I have the GHH w/cube and the truth.  Let me know if you want to have a listen sometime.

Brooks
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Bbakertx
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« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2014, 06:20:34 AM »

Thanks Brooks.  PM sent.
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2014, 11:51:33 PM »

Steve wrote ....
Quote
Everyone please realize that Ed isn't picking on the other guy. Neither am I.

Thank you Steve.
Quote
If there is something new out there say so. Let peer review examine it to further the art.

Exactly. To make claims of performance and that you've built a better mouse trap invites questions and challenges to prove it. If the claims were true and they may be, and if the driver being offered was the best and not second best of the type I might have been interested in helping sell/promote them.

To say your "second best" "product"  is superior to an icon and your "best"  is even better  are tall claims and if true would be fantastic. The issue of "a patented driver and not a rebadge of an existing driver" is one I'm glad I don't have to prove/validate and again, if true, what is the issue with explaining why and how it got the patent.

Why all the mystery........ "worked with Dr. Heil for years before his death". I'd be proud to say I'd worked with Dr. Heil but yet this fellow is too shy to reveal himself?

And so it goes..........

Hey Brad, make no mistake, I am not knocking other AMT's ! Your Daytons may in fact and probably are very good. They just can not have the dispersion of the GH. They can not ever be a GH. This does not make them bad or even not fantastic, just different. In the case of The Horns the GH being a di-pole (arghhh) is a good thing since they are corner horns and have output to the rear. Also, nothing looks cooler than a GH Smiley.

Here's the thing, the GH is what it is because of what it is.....all other "AMT's" simply use a pleated diaphragm to achieve some of the claimed benefits.  The best of the soft dome and metal dome and certainly some ribbons should easily outperform a simple pleated diaphragm type driver.

The GH is special, plain and simple. Anything else is just a wannabe with some of the benefits of the pleated diaphragm, which is not all bad either.
Ed
ps.....I heard Mundorf no longer sells direct to the DIY folks because of failures due to improper implementation. Can anyone say "6db slope too low?" PE sells a Dayton with a Mundorf diaphragm. And they sell replacement diaphragms for it. Hmmmmm.......

I would recommend all owners of the GH get a spare diaphragm or two, just in case, although with the GH and the series xover you'll have to try really, really, really hard to melt them. I'm not even sure it's possible but with a spare set of diaphragms and the known track record of lifespan of un-abused GH's, you should be good for a lifetime......or 30-40 years whichever comes first Smiley








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