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Author Topic: Plus Heil  (Read 8690 times)
cidermill1
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« on: March 16, 2014, 11:18:54 AM »

Added Heil drivers about two weeks ago
Became a Hornshoppe listener some time ago with model 1 and 108 driver
Updated with 126 and then 126en, plus magic cube
Each time a pure delight working my way through the collection of LPs and Cds as if for the first time
Now with the Heil, wow
Listening to very familiar music and hearing parts I never knew were there. Listening to recordings that to my ears had sounded strangled or limited now sound natural, free and open.
Still experimenting with speaker orientation
Used a dot of Loctite flexible adhesive to secure heil drivers to cabinet top and a bit of a black plastic report cover that has a similar textured finish to cover the putty
Thanks Ed
Michael

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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2014, 03:15:55 PM »

Thanks Michael! A very "timely" post but I can't explain why Smiley
Here is a review of the Great Heil. The last two paragraphs before the conclusion pretty much say it all. It's old but that does not make it invalid Smiley

With the Horns we have the low mass needed to match the speed and the bandwidth and efficiency to not need a big cone.

Does anyone think that is a coincidence or that I did not know that when I married them? Smiley I sure hope not!

http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/ess_amt_e.html
Ed
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2014, 06:38:08 PM »

Oh Hell, why not just go for it?

Some folks claim the Great Heil is not suitable as a midrange or has problems in that area. Unfortunately this is simply due to lack of knowledge and their implementation using unsuitable mid bass drivers. This has led them to form conclusions that are wrong and state things that are simply in error. If one thinks the difference in 700 and 800hz is significant when no tolerance is given for the spec. but still claims superiority based on those numbers.......well..............and even more to the point if one driver is flat to 700 and another flat to 800, so what, that is simply insignificant. While I never said that about lesser designs (or ones claimed superior) it seems trying to bash the Great Heil is ok.

It's all good. I figure the folks reading this can figure out what's up. I sell the Great Heil because it is the best and mates perfectly with the Horns, or should I say the Horns allow it to work it's best? Smiley Either way, ya'll know the deal. It's special, no imitator has it's qualities and whether any will ever truly outperform it remains to be seen. Ambiguous, unsubstantiated claims don't mean squat to me but ya'll knew that already!

Please read the following statement from the review carefully.....
Quote
It is therefore understandable why successful commercial applications of the Heil Air Motion Transformer tweeter have used big bass-mid drivers to cross over low enough to reap maximum benefit from this expensive driver. The other vital aspect of system design is matching the speed of the bass-mid driver to the ESS AMT tweeter. Ultra low mass cones combined with BIG magnets and short voice coils are the order of the day.

My guess is that all of you who have them are quite surprised to hear it's not one of the best midrange drivers available. Smiley
Ed
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johnnycopy
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« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2014, 12:02:36 AM »

Pretty sure I know the story, Ed.

I have been fortunate enough to have purchased products from both companies. As far as your products go Ed, I can say I have thoroughly enjoyed the horns, cube, and the truth is just the most transparent dynamic pre i have had the pleasure to use and i am not sure what i would ever trade it for.

I am sure the heil with the horns is a revelation.  The horns energize my room with their presence, imaging is pinpoint, and when they are in corners, metallica shocks you. And with home theatre, i didnt need a centre channel, voices were startlingly real.

I have no doubt that the heil has taken the horns to a new level at a very affordable price.

That said i hope the issue you talk about is discussed and resolved to both of your satisfactions.  I admire both company's products, their owners ingenuity and their commitment to their customers.  I know you would give the shirt off your back for your peeps, you have done it for me. Regardless of your issue, the other participant has done the same for me also.

Take care ed, and thanks for the quick turnaround on the repair you just did for me that was caused by someone else's stupidity (no not mine for a change).  Smiley

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Pit Hinder
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« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2014, 05:02:15 AM »

Well...

midrange drivers, as sold nowadays, are the runt of the litter.
"Our bass doesn´t go high enough, our tweeter is crap...lemme think for a minute...hey - let´s sell a 3way!"

Dear Mister Company vice president, give me two excellent drivers and stop preaching it needs three to make a pair.
(That´s my two cents about Ed´s HH not being a 3way.)


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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2014, 07:03:24 AM »

Hey John, short version.....sent a PM letting him know some tech details and to let him know also some things he was saying were in error and sooner or later he'd be called on it. I am not the only one to see it and know it. I did not disparage his product or him in any way. I was trying to help him avoid problems he'll probably have by putting forth incorrect info.

It's ironic he's been bashing the Great Heil and saying things that are not in agreement with people that "know better" and then complains about this very thing being done to HIM!!!!!  It was not me that put anything or anyone down. Quite the contrary, I never said a bad word at all about his adventure. And certainly nothing in public there or even here that would identify him or product!

On the other hand he's had no problem giving opinion of other people's product by name and claiming his is vastly superior, which it's not, but that is another discussion! There is a word for behavior like that!

I could give a rats ass what he or anyone else does but ambiguous, misleading and plain wrong info. will cause a fellow problems. I was warning him of this, as a "friend". No shit. Apparently the truth does not matter.

Ed
edit**** I did not bring ANY of this in the open, but now that it is, it's on. I sent a PM. My username was deleted. There was no reason for him to bring any of this up in public. He took offense at my attempt to warn him that inaccuracies were obvious not only to me but others as well whether or not they let him know they knew.
Too bad I did not save my PM. He's got it. I don't think anyone that reads it will take it as bashing his product or business. It was simply the truth and a hint not everyone is fooled.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 12:05:19 PM by Ed Schilling » Logged
Cheerwino
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« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2014, 12:52:06 PM »

Well damn. Why can't we all just get along? Huh
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Steve F
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« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2014, 03:26:52 PM »

Here we go again! For once I don't know who the other guy is.

The Heil is an incredible driver. Period. It matches up with the Horns beautifully. Also period. A lot of people really don't understand how to use it. Another period. No good deed goes unpunished. Final period.

Steve
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2014, 04:32:26 PM »

Steve, you do not need to know who it is. All you need to know is that his driver is bigger, more efficient, goes lower and better than the Heil in every way. And of course, the  Great Heil is not a good midrange driver.
I should mention it is just another flat face one with a wave guide stuck on the front.

The fellow does not realize and has not gotten it yet that many folks can sift through BS and misinformation whether it's given on purpose or not. He also knows very little about actual driver design but does sell his own built to "his specs" by an American company.

If his claims are true, how are they possible? Better materials? Nope, that may work for the uneducated. Lower moving mass? Nope, not if bigger. Stronger magnet? I seriously doubt it. It's bigger, great, then it has higher moving mass. Can handle more power than the Great Heil.....woop de doo.....if used properly the Great Heil will play way loud enough forever with no issues. Is it immune from thermal runaway when someone xovers it at 800 hz with a 6 db slope....hahahahahah. We'll see about that. Does it have the radiation pattern that contributes to what makes the Great Heil special? Nope, it's just another wannabee.

My PM to the fellow was to warn him about guys like you, Steve. I would never have gone on his forum and brought up the fact he keeps comparing his mythical driver to one of the best on the planet and fundamentally does not understand things. I tried to warn him about YOU and fellows like you! He twisted it all around. Good for him. You'd twist him in a pretzel with technical facts but you'd be banned and deleted.

When Tre' educated me about the Bipole thing I was grateful to be educated!
Ed


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Steve F
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« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2014, 05:08:29 PM »

 I didn't ask. You are right that his name doesn't matter. There is an awful lot of bs out there though. We can both name a few guys in audio who built their careers that way. Did I say a few?

Steve

Edit: I'll leave pissing people off to you.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 05:19:17 PM by Steve F » Logged
Ed Schilling
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« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2014, 05:23:45 PM »

Hey Steve, I'll send you a link via e-mail, what the hell, you'll be amused. I feel sorry for his DIY customers, they only get his "second best" "AMT". You have to spend a lot of money to get the best one he has. No worries, his second best is waaaaay better than the Great Heil. He says so!

You know, if this situation were reversed I would have thanked him for pointing out my errors and acknowledged that the Great Heil does indeed operate in a way mine does not. Then I would have explained on a technical level why mine is better if it truly were. It couldn't be but that is how I'd have responded.

Ed
edit*** I call BS...you love pissing off guys when you're right Smiley you just like watching me do it more Smiley.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 05:27:32 PM by Ed Schilling » Logged
Steve F
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« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2014, 05:44:22 PM »

Ed,  Cheesy
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Bbakertx
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« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2014, 05:54:21 PM »

As someone who is a customer of both of these fine gentlemen, wanted to stick my nose in here: Angry

When I don't have the opportunity to hear something first hand, I rely on the opinions of those I trust.
Ed feels that the Great Heil can't be bettered, no matter what, ever.
The other guy feels like his driver is better than the Heil.
Appears to be a matter of opinion at this point.....but that's just MY opinion.

In this case, I don't have the easy chance to hear EITHER, much less both, so I'm kinda stuck.
I've seen the Great Heil sensitivity stated at 92db at Partsexpress, but up to 98db in some other places.

For how I want to use it, either will most likely be a good fit for me.  I am playing it safe and using a cheaper driver (Dayton AMT Pro 4) until I get the chance to at least hear one of these.
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2014, 06:22:54 PM »

Hey Brad, that is reasonable! Just keep in mind, the Great Heil operates and has a radiation pattern that can not be duplicated in any other design, It is "special". Is it "better"? Well, I think so if you are able to use it properly.

Your Dayton's operate exactly like every single other similar type including the mythical ones. There is no reason to believe the mythical ones would be significantly better based on any real data. This is from a "review"....
Quote
This is a patented driver and is not a rebadge of any existing driver.


I'd like to see the patents and see exactly what was worthy of patent. Calling bullshit here.

What is truly funny to me is that I could care less! I'm not making any claims  at all that have not been validated for many years with regard to the Great Heil! Everything I have said about the Great Heil is easily proved and confirmed.


What the other guy has been claiming is nothing but unsubstantiated claims. The Great Heils have been around decades and now all of a sudden they are not fantastic mid range drivers because this guy says so? As if his magic mythical driver that no one knows who makes is now the standard by which all amt wannabees are judged? Bullshit.

What bothers me about all this is that he has bashed the Great Heil with no problem and then acted like he's been disparaged. He claims to have a superior product but yet has no proof at all this is true.

Ed


« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 06:34:43 PM by Ed Schilling » Logged
Steve F
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« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2014, 08:08:36 PM »

Ed,

I figured it out.

The first time i saw a horn attached to a Heil type driver was by a Speaker Builder Magazine contributor quite some time ago. Nothing new there. The reason there are a bunch of Heil-ish drivers lately is simply that the patents expired. Anyone can build one nowadays.

I did a patent search & couldn't find any. I found the original Heil patents easily. (Our forum discussions followed.) Maybe he is referring to Oskar Heil's patents.

Steve

Addition: Heil had six patents. They are well known. I found references to a patent by Mundorf  for a U shaped neo magnet structure, but no number. I found a patent for a diaphragm suspended in a horn shell perpendicular to normal placement. Somebody should ask this company for their patent number.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 08:50:03 PM by Steve F » Logged
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