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Author Topic: Southern style barbecued Heil drivers  (Read 17216 times)
Henry
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« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2013, 06:54:40 PM »

... I just finished hacksawing a driver that Henry gave me. Columbo would approve though.

Steve

Jeez Steve, those were just on "permanent loan" and meant to be loved and remain pristine forever.  You ungrateful animal. Grin Grin Grin

But really, I hope you guys find a way to work this out.  Being a candid wuss, I'll say that it absolutely hurts to watch. Sad
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2013, 07:02:19 PM »

Rob, WTF is wrong with you? What part of series xover causing a problem did you not read? How is my xover causing a problem in a class D amp a "dig" at you? The point was THE HEILS ARE PROTECTED. Not the amp was at fault.
Fuck, when did you guys lose the ability to read and take things as they are?

Helen and Sid. are shocked at you guys and your reactions. They never side with me. Anything from you that shows up here will be returned. You don't owe me shit except maybe an apology for acting like I've wronged someone. I guess this means you won't be visiting with Henry? Jumping Jesus on a pogo stick.
Ed

Edit>>>as to "beat to death", not hardly, I sold both types in both 6 and 12 db slopes and ended up with the series 6db for many reasons. I moved forward.  I did not realize these attempts to enlighten, educate and make people think would be so upsetting or insulting to anyone. And Hell, I thought I knew shit and my opinion, knowledge and experience  was respected. I guess not. No big deal.

Sonic, for the love of Christ, please review and question my posts.........you're the man when it comes to "asking the tough ones"......go for it.......please do tell where I went wrong....you're objective and never hold back......do it!

« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 07:25:55 PM by Ed Schilling » Logged
Steve F
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« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2013, 12:47:09 AM »

Henry, I had this idea.

I always wanted to get a pair of Walsh drivers. (I am absolutely fascinated by the interface between the room and loudspeaker.) I've built switchable bipole/dipoles. Electrostatics, that sucked, corner horns that were excellent, but fit nowhere, controlled directivity conventional speakers, and a whole bunch more. I'm curious and although I guess I could read about it, I "enjoy" hands on experience. Yeah there's got to be something wrong with that. So along with some vodka & ice, I was looking at pics of Lincoln Walsh's invention, decided I'd give it a try, and. It was "Let's see, what drivers do I have on hand to donate a strong motor assembly. the rest is history. It might even work. Too bad I can't post pics these days. Except for a table saw, hand tools, and an ancient Knight oscilloscope, I think I've boxed up everything I own, including cameras.

Rob,

Class D dig? I don't get it. I see no name calling, insults, belittling, etc. And I hate it when people don't treat
each other with respect. I don't see that here from anyone. I do see a lot of pain caused by misunderstanding, and frustration.

Steve

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Henry
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« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2013, 05:58:32 AM »

Henry, I had this idea...

Steve, you're a scary man sometimes.  I have visions of a white lab coat and tinted goggles... mad sciencey stuff. Cheesy

Sounds like fun, let me know how that works out.  Just kidding about the drivers, btw.  I want to make sure you knew that!  Grin
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firebottle
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« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2013, 06:56:47 AM »

Hey Steve.

Well, I guess you don't think Ed asking me WTF is wrong with me, when did I lose the ability to read and take things as they are, etc, to be respectful, huh ?  I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that.  I find it very disrespectful and in addition I don't like to be lectured by Ed or anyone else.  A spirited debate yes, a lecture, no.  It's more about that.  For the record, the class D I sent down to Henry at Ed's was an open wound for me as that amp fried some drivers regardless of the cause.  I was mortified it happened and damaged anybody's gear.  I take that seriously.  I was understandably upset it took place, hence my comment about it.  Ed chose to use it as the recent example as you read.  Salt in an open wound I guess.  Also for the record I don't owe Ed an apology for anything.  Actually I think its just the opposite.  If I owe anyone an appogy it's the members of this forum, not Ed.  For having to read through all the schoolyard bullshit.

This will be my last post here on this forum.  I wish you well Steve.

Rob.

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Steve F
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« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2013, 07:32:35 AM »

Hi Rob,
I have a thick hide most of the time. If Ed asked me WTF is wrong with me, with my poor typing skills, and a long list, it would take me about a week. Unless I asked my wife to update it, make that a month.
Okay the Class D thing would be killing me too. Not from guilt, because obviously nobody could expect those results. And yeah, I'd want to reimburse too. But I don't think that was the reason. (I once dropped a live mike during a sound check and 4 JBL woofers tried to jump across the stage. I learned about field replacement and reconing the hard way.) I too wish you well. Take care.

Henry,
After I spent the night crazy gluing the driver back together, you really don't mind?   Grin  Man. Actually built a form to mold the basic driver. Good thing Julie is out of town. Pulp is messy. This would have been much easier if I just pointed a driver straight up and added a diffuser of some sort. I doubt this is going to amount to much, but I am becoming an authority on how not to build speakers.

Steve
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2013, 07:46:33 AM »

Well, maybe this should be read. http://thehornshoppeforum.com/index.php?topic=402.0

There was no "dig", the point was the series xover caused the damage but also due to it the Heils were undamaged  This will happen with ANY class D amp that uses a series xover so how in the world can that be a reflection on Rob escapes me.

I wrote 2 pages to try and explain a little why the Heils are different than a VC driver and that that type damage can happen several different ways. I also hinted that a series xover with The Horns will protect it regardless of the amplifier power.

And not a single person has asked how is that possible, I really thought that would be something folks might like to know, especially those of you who have spent such a large amount of money and might have been a little freaked at Randy's picture. In addition to trying to "learn you something" I was letting my guys know they have nothing to worry about.

As to "lecturing", I was going with the first definition.

 1.. An exposition of a given subject delivered before an audience or a class, as for the purpose of instruction.
2. An earnest admonition or reproof; a reprimand.

Rob is correct, this is schoolyard BS started by Randy's response to me trying to tell folks things they probably didn't know and continued by Rob.

I've made the reason very clear why I responded to Randy's post the way I did.......so one last time....

I also hinted that a series xover with The Horns will protect it regardless of the amplifier power.

And not a single person has asked how is that possible, I really thought that would be something folks might like to know, especially those of you who have spent such a large amount of money and might have been a little freaked at Randy's picture. In addition to trying to "learn you something" I was letting my guys know they have nothing to worry about.


I'm still mystified as to why Randy got so upset, I did not berate, belittle or suggest he did not know what he was talking about at any time. He obviously thought the whole post was directed at him and it was not, it was directed at people who have spent their hard earned money and seeing the Heils might have gotten a little nervous.

Since my f5 clone and my Pass X150 have both taken out drivers in the past I could have used them as an example, except I never had Heils or a series xover with them. I used the incident at Hfest as an example, nothing more, nothing less.........it would have happened with any class D  we believe. But the Heils were undamaged....that is the point, not what the amp did, it had no choice. A conventional xover is fine with the class D amps but it will offer no protection to the Heil except for the slope and point of the xover, they are still subject to "thermal runaway".

The series xover sounds better since there is no cap in line with the Heil.

There are tradeoffs in everything......std. xover works with any amp but may subject the Heils to thermal runaway if the slope is not steep enough or the point too low. The series xover is NOT safe with class D amps but yet the Heil is protected regardless of amplifier power. Pick your poison.

Had I realized everyone knows all this, since apparently by the way you guys have responded you do, I would have just said "cool pics". But I had a feeling you did not know any of this.

I'm still at a loss as to why Randy was so offended. It had nothing to do with him and certainly nothing to do with Rob.

Yep, schoolboy bull shit. Well said.
Ed


« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 07:51:32 AM by Ed Schilling » Logged
Capt. Z
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« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2013, 07:59:10 AM »

.
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2013, 08:54:14 AM »

More needs to be said. Randy's response to me after my attempt to give some useful info hurt my feelings pretty badly. My attempts to explain myself and assure everyone the post was not directed at Randy fell on blind eyes. His and Rob's for sure, don't know about anyone else since y'all are smart enough to stay out of this mess.

When Rob wrote "Well I guess I'm in the doghouse now, I'm good with that also upset me a little. I was shocked he said that. Never saw it coming from either of them

To have Randy slap me in the face and then Rob to basically say "screw you" was just a little upsetting to me.
 
Oh well...........I've explained it, it is what it is.
Ed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FONN-0uoTHI

« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 11:57:27 AM by Ed Schilling » Logged
Steve F
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« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2013, 03:15:53 PM »

Henry,

The Walsh or Walshy driver actually works, well mostly it does. I got all excited and attached a tweeter without a crossover just to play with acoustics. I've heard worse at AXPONA. I'm no in danger of melting anything as I'm using a 13EM7 tranny coupled amp with about 2.5 WPC. This is so cool. I'm building another variant to listen in stereo. I decided to post in continuation of the meltdown topic since I mentioned my project here.

Steve
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Henry
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« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2013, 05:36:36 PM »

Hey Steve, good news!  You need a way to make some postable pictures because I trust... but verify.  Grin

I guess I'll believe you, this time.  Cheesy

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Steve F
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« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2013, 12:58:13 AM »

Henry, I might have something to send you and Ed in a couple of weeks. Not pics, speakers. I'll PM details.

Steve
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horizons59
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« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2013, 12:25:42 PM »

I'm a newbie around here but I fail to see where Ed screwed-up. I for one, would like more information on the Heils and his series crossover. Not to mention that the Class D/series xover post here probably saved dozens of blown drivers for people who were unaware of that situation.

Some of you guys bolting here seem very tightly wound about audio. After reading most of the posts on this board, it seems clear to me that Ed has more experience and knowledge than anyone else here. By a country mile. Why would anyone want to stifle his free speech? Hell, he is even posting apologies.

Maybe Ed will answer this one... If you lower the DCR of the coil in the Horned Heil series crossover, what would be the net effect? What is an acceptable level of DCR in that coil? I'm assuming higher DCR will lower the output from the Horn but I know nothing about series crossovers.
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2013, 09:55:39 AM »

Thanks H'59, I'm not an expert on series xovers either but I do know a little. I called my buddy "Buzz" and asked him since he'd mentioned it before. The gist is that it probably affects damping factor of the amp more than output to the drivers. This is of no consequence in a SS amp but may be in a tube amp, especially a low power one. The coils I use do not seem to cause issue with my 3 watt Transcendent CFA.  To be on the safe side one might use the lowest DCR possible of the same value as an "upgrade". I just don't know for sure if it is worth it.  

The main advantage of the series xover is that only the xover point shifts with different driver impedance's.
If you desire a certain point and one of the drivers' impedance is not exactly what it should be the xover point will simply shift. With a parallel network this will not be the case. This is "special".....say you pick 1K for 8 ohm drivers but one driver is 6 ohms and the other 4 ohms the only thing that happens is that the 1k point for both drivers will shift. With a parallel network that is not what happens, the point for both drivers shift in different directions.

This does not matter with just a cap and letting the woofer run free but in my case I want the xover because The Horned Heils are a real 2-way, not just a "Heil for highs".......The T-90's are for that!

Hope this helps.
Ed
EDIT***** Only the 1st order series xover has the special property mentioned above.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 12:05:36 PM by Ed Schilling » Logged
johnnycopy
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« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2013, 03:01:08 PM »

Thanks H'59, I'm not an expert on series xovers either but I do know a little. I called my buddy "Buzz" and asked him since he'd mentioned it before. The gist is that it probably affects damping factor of the amp more than output to the drivers. This is of no consequence in a SS amp but may be in a tube amp, especially a low power one. The coils I use do not seem to cause issue with my 3 watt Transcendent CFA.  To be on the safe side one might use the lowest DCR possible of the same value as an "upgrade". I just don't know for sure if it is worth it.  

The main advantage of the series xover is that only the xover point shifts with different driver impedance's.
If you desire a certain point and one of the drivers' impedance is not exactly what it should be the xover point will simply shift. With a parallel network this will not be the case. This is "special".....say you pick 1K for 8 ohm drivers but one driver is 6 ohms and the other 4 ohms the only thing that happens is that the 1k point for both drivers will shift. With a parallel network that is not what happens, the point for both drivers shift in different directions.

This does not matter with just a cap and letting the woofer run free but in my case I want the xover because The Horned Heils are a real 2-way, not just a "Heil for highs".......The T-90's are for that!

Hope this helps.
Ed
EDIT***** Only the 1st order series xover has the special property mentioned above.

Ed have you heard the 300b yet?

Thanks john
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