The Hornshoppe Forum
August 20, 2017, 02:37:54 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: SMF - Just Installed!
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3
  Print  
Author Topic: Southern style barbecued Heil drivers  (Read 17647 times)
Randy in Caintuck
Full Member
***
Posts: 120



View Profile WWW
« on: July 06, 2013, 07:48:22 AM »

I recently snagged a pair of Heil drivers from ePay for a current project.
They looked OK in the photos and there were photos of both drivers hooked up to a meter to show impedance (within specs).

When I received the drivers and popped them in the project speakers, it was immediately apparent that the output from one of them was audibly lower than its mate .....  Tongue

So ..... I placed the victim on the operating table and removed the diaphragm ..... hoo boy .....





Larger photos here and here.

It certainly appears that the original owner was using an arc welder to drive his ESS monstrosities .....   Shocked

The good news is that after replacing the diaphragm, I once again had "Sound As Clear As Light ™" .....   Grin

The other driver sounds great and identical to the repaired driver, but I will be replacing the diaphragm "just in case".

I figured that anyone who has never seen a "mistreated" diaphragm might enjoy seeing this train wreck .....  Roll Eyes

Happy listening,

Randy
Logged

Rega Saturn-R transport
Camelot Uther DAC with Anagram upgrade
La Dolce Audio UA1.5 pentode amplifier
Decware SE84UFO, the Spud, Flea Watt amplifiers
Caintuck Audio Betsy open baffle speakers
Caintuck Audio Alpha open baffle subs
Ed Schilling
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1307


View Profile Email
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2013, 09:17:24 AM »

Randy, I'm an OEM for ESS. I might could have saved you a little money. I have parts and units drop shipped.
That's typical of too low an xover, not necessarily the result of too much power. There are a lot of guys using the Heil but not actually understanding it or xovers. In their mind they think a 6 db xover at 5k or 10 xover is stopping the lower freq. Typically the bass drivers are high mass and low efficiency. Oh, the claimed sensitivity may be "95db@ 1 watt" (what most think are efficiency numbers are actually the sensitivity, NOT the efficiency, even so called "designers" get this wrong) but that does not mean they are "efficient". This causes the system to actually need more power than the numbers suggest. Trouble shows up. This also helps contribute to the notion the Heils are better tweeters than midranges. Well, when you're fed the same thing different ways it's easy to come to the wrong conclusion.

This was one of the problems with the original AMT speakers. While the bass drivers may have had decent sensitivities they were high mass and not especially efficient.

With just a cap and a 5k xover the Heils are putting out significant power at 1K but yet I hear guys say "they make better tweets than mids but yet with any 6db xover 10k or below the Heil is doing midrange duty, it's just being drowned out by what ever else is playing that range.

The "problem" is the bass drivers can't come close to the distortion levels of the Heils so a mid is employed to fix that and the Heil xover gets pushed up. The system "sounds better" but only because it was not right in the first place.

As to "moving air".......that one kills me! 800hz at 90 db is the same whether a 1 inch speaker makes it or a 10 foot one. There is simply no difference except the excursion needed and that will affect the distortion. Period. This is not "opinion" it is physics and anyone that does not understand that or believe it is simply wrong.

The diaphram in a Heil has the surface area of a typical 8 inch driver with the mass of a tweeter, to think it is "not a good midrange" is simply the result of flawed thinking and probably experience that was headed wrong. And I do not care how long a fellow has "been at it".

I spent 10 years messing with single driver speakers before I built a really good one. Just because a guy uses something does not mean he understands it or that he ever used it to it's fullest potential. Doing the same thing over and over whether a concept or in practice does not make one "right" on the subject it makes them experienced and the experience may be flawed from the start.

The magic of the Heil is the midrange, everyone who has them hears it but many have no idea what freq. they are actually hearing from it because they actually have no fundamental knowledg of xovers and how they actually perform in a system. They think "only a cap, no xover".....ARGGHHHHH.

Without a proper xover (yes, the bass driver needs one too) the Great Heil is not being used to it's full potential and flawed experiments based on wrong ideas will reinforce the notion it should have a high xover point. In reality the high xover is required because improper bass driver selection and a lack of understanding.

But I don't care! I only point this stuff out because guys that do understand shake their heads when reading stuff like "the Heils really shine when xovered at 10k". To some of us it's like telling Carrol Shelby a GT500 would be a better car with a 4 cylinder because of the lower weight and they know it for a fact because they did it only to find out they never actually go over 60 mph and never leave the neighborhood. They might be right for them but they certainly would not be right as far as Shelby is concerned Smiley

Anyone serious about designing speakers and understanding what is going on simply must have a spectrum analyzer. it is eye opening when you see that what you thought was happening is so far wrong it is laughable. Oh, don't get me wrong, a fellow might be ecstatic over what he's built and the sound but he also may be dumbfounded to find what he thought he was hearing is not what is happening in reality.

The Heils, in my room were "ruler flat" from ~2k past 20K, btw.

In my case I use a series xover and this means the cap and coil is not in the signal path. This is much better than any cap in series with the Heil, but that is another rant.

Ed
Logged
Ed Schilling
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1307


View Profile Email
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2013, 12:32:16 PM »

Ok, part two. I am not saying that everyone that uses the Heils are using them wrong. I am saying that most use them the same way they have always been used. as if they were a conventional mid/tweeter.

If coupled with a high mass, mid efficient large driver you have just duplicated the original uses.  While the big driver may be sensitive it may not be efficient and it most likely does not have an impedance curve anywhere near as flat as the Heil. This means the xover will certainly not behave on it as predictable a manner as the Heil. Ok, so you use no xover on the bass driver. Unless
designed as a "wide band" driver how in the world could it play past 1k with anything like the low distortion of a Heil at that freq.? What speaker mfg. brags of the high mass of their midrange or tweeter models? So, somehow a large diameter, high mass driver, is supposed to have lower distortion and "sound better" at 1K than a Heil designed to go that low?

So why do so many xover it high and then use high mass drivers for the "midrange"? And from what I see this is where many end up. I guess it's because their bass drivers can't actually play with low distortion past a couple K and it gets blamed on the Heils so they x them over high and add a midrange driver. problem solved, sounds fine, most likely.

The point is, The Great Heil way waaaaay ahead of it's time and is being used by many pretty much the same as it always was but with better components.

I'd like to think my approach is "different" total moving mass of system is about 4 grams. The system is both efficient and sensitive. Very easy to drive. Now, it does not go as low as a pair of 12 or 15 inchers but it'll go as loud and lower with the FFRS Mark 420 i.

Here's the real test......after building something how long before it's changed and "improved". See, I believe the system once "right" should not change. It's either "right" to you or not, once "right" why would one change it? You all know I believe this, how many "improvements" over the years? 2 driver changes because we had to then to the 126 and then to the 126En. Oh, we've had fun with "tweaks" but did they last? The Heils form a completely different system, there is a real, series xover. They are not just "hooked up with a cap" to add some highs! The T-90's do that! Oh, I forgot, it's a hobby!

Ed
 PS....This is from my Stereophile review........

 What we're interested in are two things: loudspeaker sensitivity and loudspeaker efficiency.

Think you know how to find them? Here's a test: Take a look at the brochure or Web page describing your favorite speaker, and find the number that expresses efficiency. If you're pointing to the number of decibels the speaker can produce when fed 2.83V and measured from 1m away, you've given the wrong answer, and Grady must correct you. That number expresses the loudspeaker's voltage sensitivity. Sensitivity and efficiency are as different from one another as gain and power—an imperfect analogy, I know, but a helpful one, I hope.

Briefly, sensitivity describes how loudly a speaker will play given a certain voltage; efficiency describes how well the loudspeaker converts electrical power into acoustical power. In other words, efficiency is how easy it is or isn't for an amp to develop and maintain that voltage across the speaker, as a load. Sensitivity is measured in decibels relative to a given voltage and measuring distance (typically 2.83V and 1m, respectively), and efficiency can be assessed by looking, not only at sensitivity but also at a speaker's nominal impedance, in ohms. Efficiency can therefore be gleaned from a graph that plots a speaker's impedance, in ohms, vs frequency, in hertz.




 Despite its minuscule drive-unit, the Horn Shoppe's Horn is very sensitive, at an estimated 94dB(B)/2.83V/m. Its impedance also stays above 8 ohms over the entire audioband (fig.1), meaning it is both sensitive and efficient. But the raggedness of the traces in this graph is a little alarming, as are the peaks at various frequencies, implying the presence of resonances.



JA tested them in free air, not in corners....I reckon they did look a little ragged, no big deal.
Logged
Randy in Caintuck
Full Member
***
Posts: 120



View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2013, 08:02:50 AM »

Ed,

I have no interest in debating you on crossovers.

These drivers shipped to me WITH the original crossovers that came with the ESS speakers.
They were never used in anything but the original speakers with the original ESS crossovers.
The guy fried them ..... plain and simple.

The only reason I posted this was for entertainment purposes for those who had never seen a burned up or melted diaphragm.

I will not be posting to the forum anymore, since you find it necessary to give a lecture on crossovers at every opportunity.

Randy
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 08:41:03 AM by Randy in Caintuck » Logged

Rega Saturn-R transport
Camelot Uther DAC with Anagram upgrade
La Dolce Audio UA1.5 pentode amplifier
Decware SE84UFO, the Spud, Flea Watt amplifiers
Caintuck Audio Betsy open baffle speakers
Caintuck Audio Alpha open baffle subs
Capt. Z
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 411



View Profile Email
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2013, 08:46:03 AM »

Hi Randy;

Thanks for showing those diaphragms. They sure look nasty. I am looking straight at my Hails right now and since they sit in front of a window the light shines through the diaphragms and they look nice and white.
Logged
Ed Schilling
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1307


View Profile Email
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2013, 09:14:30 AM »

Randy, as long as we've been friends I am really sorry you feel this way. What I posted is exactly in line with the "problems" of the original ESS designs and why they may have melted. It is not surprising at all. My intent was to help folks understand why they melt and how to avoid it in a DIY setup.
.
I did not realize I'd offend you by giving information to others so that they might avoid a melt down when using the Heils in a DIY project. I always thought "knowledge is power" not the "information runs your friends off".

I've certainly have never been offended when someone tried to explain things to me that I did not understand. I did not realize we were debating xovers. I was explaining how and why Heils can end up in your condition. If you read through my posts you'll see that I was talking about design and theory......just because ESS used them wrong does not make them right or me wrong. You have the evidence in your hand but yet I use them with a 6 db slope and there is no chance of damage.  Just seemed like an opportunity to explain why.

Ed
edit...... Randy, a more appropriate response would have been "please tell me more about series xovers".
You don't think not having a cap in line is a bad thing do you? Isn't that the goal of a minimalist xover, to have as few components in the signal path as possible? How about "none" and "special properties" to boot?

Hell yea, I will "lecture" and I can't see how explaining things is bad. It is not and if what I say is wrong I'd appreciate hearing it. Opinion I'm not too keen on but fact is another story. You posted melted pics., I responded by explaining how it typically happens. Again, the original ESS designs were what I was talking about and the fact DIY guys are in lock step with them and as such will suffer the same "problems".

I had no idea you thought I was such a dumb ass and that I had no idea what I was talking about and only wanted to argue with you. I seriously thought you might like to understand how and why it happens and how to avoid it. Oops.



« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 09:42:04 AM by Ed Schilling » Logged
firebottle
Newbie
*
Posts: 31


View Profile Email
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2013, 09:35:57 AM »

Hey Ed,  I think You're missing the point there on Randy's post.  It appears to me Randy was simply displaying pictures and comments regarding what he found.  It's that simple.  You took that as an opportunity to flex your knowledge about crossovers, once again, and your "opinion" as eternal fact.   I can understand how you want to be an "educator" but, at the cost of lost customers and friends.  Geeeeez man, get a grip.  Randy has been one your biggest supporters over the years.  You are apparently willing to sacrifice that in order to "Educate Us" whether we want it or not.  It's your forum, so it's your choice what you do with it.  Seems to me it's less fun, more "facts from Ed" these days.  Hey Ed, I know you have a big heart, but do you always have to be "right"  and say it.  I hope Randy changes his mind as I and many others enjoy his posts, humor, pictures, and comments.  All of them I have ever read were written with consideration and respect of others.  You should perhaps learn that lesson from Randy.  Ok, I guess I'm now in the doghouse.  Im good with that.  Smiley

Rob.
Logged
Steve F
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 405


View Profile Email
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2013, 09:38:13 AM »

Randy, don't stop posting. Your contributions and friendship are valuable. I've suffered the slings and arrows of forum idiocy both here and at Decware. (I left there and probably shouldn't have, but got tired of the fan boy bs. No complaints about Decware staff.) I know that this isn't one of those times. Ed loves what he's doing, and goes to great lengths to explain himself. That's all that happened.

I had a pair of Heil AMT 1's that had even worse looking diaphragms. I can't believed they almost still worked. They take a lot of abuse before they fail, I believe mostly from overheating the adhesives & baking the plastic film.

You are the guy who introduced me to the Horns. So anybody who hates my participation has you to blame.  Grin  C'mon buddy, stick around.

Steve

PS: Ed and I love giving each other the "business" especially about politics. I know for a fact that I enjoy Ed and Randy. Don't make too much of this. These guys are the best, both of them. Trouble is we take audio way to seriously. Peace.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 09:47:55 AM by Steve F » Logged
Ed Schilling
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1307


View Profile Email
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2013, 09:51:43 AM »

Rob, so I show a picture of my knee purple. Nobody cares how it happens? I really thought folks reading my forum wanted to understand things.

Fuck it, I'll stop posting since apparently nobody gives a shit about learning anything or exploring different things.

Steve, yep, I thought this was a place to explain things and help those that "don't know it all".

Fuck it. I got better shit to do. I'll answer questions like Bruce R. does. Fuck this, I'm going for a ride.
Ed
Logged
firebottle
Newbie
*
Posts: 31


View Profile Email
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2013, 10:09:43 AM »

Ed.  WOW, need I say more.  Nope.

Rob.
Logged
Ed Schilling
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1307


View Profile Email
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2013, 12:18:53 PM »

Rob, I agree, that's exactly what I thought.
1. I did not tell anyone to do anything or what to do.
2. I posted that as info for those that might be interested in how that happens, it does not take "an ark welder" amp.
3. I am OEM for ESS and may "know things" others might be interested in.
4. An appropriate (and nice) response could have been "thanks for the info", "I tried a series xover and....", "how do you get away with a low xover and no meltdown", "you are completely wrong and here's why".....and a host of others.  Not exactly how it went.  
5. The purpose of the forum is to share info and discuss, anything that is error in my posts should be pointed out immediately, do you see errors in what I posted?
6. Showing melted diaphragms is cool, no problem, but hear this my friend, I am going to yell.....WITH MY SERIES XOVER IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE THE DIAPHRAGMS MELT AS IN RANDY'S PICTURE WITH ANY AMPLIFIER At Hfest a certain class D amp did not like the series xover and sent 21 volts to the Horn/Heils....we lost 4 speakers that day......Heils were completely undamaged.
7. That is a FACT but I guess everyone knows why and how it's true so there is no need in explaining it.
8. Excuse me for trying to make people think and wonder why.

Yep, I agree, WOW, is right.
Ed
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 12:28:11 PM by Ed Schilling » Logged
Randy in Caintuck
Full Member
***
Posts: 120



View Profile WWW
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2013, 02:53:24 PM »


edit...... Randy, a more appropriate response would have been "please tell me more about series xovers".

Hell yea, I will "lecture" and I can't see how explaining things is bad. It is not and if what I say is wrong I'd appreciate hearing it. Opinion I'm not too keen on but fact is another story. You posted melted pics., I responded by explaining how it typically happens. Again, the original ESS designs were what I was talking about and the fact DIY guys are in lock step with them and as such will suffer the same "problems".

I had no idea you thought I was such a dumb ass and that I had no idea what I was talking about and only wanted to argue with you. I seriously thought you might like to understand how and why it happens and how to avoid it. Oops.


Ed,

Again ..... I have no desire to debate crossover theory with you or anyone else, but the above cannot go without a reply.
You will not find me pulling a "Columbo" after this post and continuing to come back with "oh, sir, just one more thing", but I feel that a couple of things need to be addressed for the benefit of those who don't know me well .....

1 - I am trying with great difficulty to find anything in my reply that indicates I think you are " a dumb ass".  I may question your sanity on occasion, but your intelligence has never been questioned by me.  I must admit I was annoyed that you brought up a topic that has been beaten to death on this and other forums when my sole purpose for posting those photos was to show what happens to a Heil diaphragm that has been "mistreated".  That is the term I used.

2 - You suggested that my reply should have been "please tell me more about series xovers".
I might suggest that your reply should have been " Hey, thanks Randy for the pics. If any of the forum readers buys used Heil drivers, you might want to be prepared for something like this".

3 - In your "lecture" you continue to refer to those who "have no fundamental knowledge of xovers and how they actually perform in a system" (meaning those who are using the Heil with a single cap) ..... but I am here to tell you that some of the very best loudspeakers I have ever heard use the Heils exactly this way.  Everyone who has heard these speakers consider them to be excellent. So either there are a lot of deaf music lovers or the Heils do not have to be used as you prefer to use them.  If you think that your way is best, fine ..... and the marketplace will determine if you are right or not (based on the preferences of the buying public).  To demean those with different opinions serves no purpose.

4 - I have no need of a spectrum analyzer to know what my ears tell me.  My point of reference is unamplified acoustic instruments and human voice.  An audio system either sounds like my reference (to some degree) or it does not.  I have heard several different types of loudspeakers that can accomplish this to a degree sufficient for me to enjoy music. Your Horns are one of them. Two years ago, several of those attending the Horn Fest got to compare my "original" Horns to the Horned Heils that were there. Several of us preferred the "original" Horns and heard some serious problems with the Heil version.  You later stated that the crossovers in the speakers we heard were not optimal and have been changed (for the better) since then.  Fine ..... but, that proves that several of us did not have to have a spectrum analyzer to know what we were hearing and that something "wasn't right".

5 - There are probably a good number of readers of this forum who do not go back as far as the original Decware forum and the Audio Assylum stuff to know that I have always been one of the biggest supporters of you and your loudspeakers and have fought many a bloody war defending both against the barbarian hordes ..... but I can't defend and am not buying the thought that you have some special knowledge about Heil drivers and that anyone who chooses another path is clueless and has no business using the driver as they see fit.

I can appreciate that you decided to use my thread as a "teachable moment" ..... have you been golfing with the POTUS again and are now adopting his methods ? .....  Tongue

I am done with this.  To get back to my original post, anyone buying "vintage" Heil drivers should be prepared for the possibility of replacing the diaphragms.  I have purchased some that were pristine ..... as well as the ones in the photos. Caveat Emptor

Randy


Logged

Rega Saturn-R transport
Camelot Uther DAC with Anagram upgrade
La Dolce Audio UA1.5 pentode amplifier
Decware SE84UFO, the Spud, Flea Watt amplifiers
Caintuck Audio Betsy open baffle speakers
Caintuck Audio Alpha open baffle subs
Ed Schilling
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1307


View Profile Email
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2013, 03:20:36 PM »

Randy, much better. Do act like Columbo, he was smart. I hope you are just having a bad day.

You read too much into my post. I was speaking in general terms only. I even said I believed ESS "got it wrong". When I use the word "you" I do not mean you.

Of course I know you have been one of my strongest supporters, so why did you assume I was somehow referring to you and the way you are doing things? I have no idea what you're up to. The pics of the melted diaphragms were cool. I'd rather not ever see a pair like that in my room. So I got carried away and "explained" how it can happen and why it does when it should not. The fact that many do not understand xover design and build them and they work for them does not bother me at all. I never said you were one of them. I pointed out it was common.

Pretty much all used Heils will be damaged to one extent or the other....in many cases you can not tell until you pull the diaphragms because as you noted "it played but at lower output"......my guess is a large number of folks have partially melted diaphragms and have no idea. Sometimes they get damaged when the new ones are installed..........Steve.....Smiley (yes, you did!) But can be saved Smiley

So, Randy, my question is simply......is a capacitor in line with a driver better than not having one in line?
Not a trick question......if the answer is "yes", well, I'm stumped, if the answer is "no", then wouldn't the next question be "how do I do it" and the next should be "why?". Suppose all this had to do with how to avoid melted diaphragms that a fellow just replaced in the used Heils he just got.

See, your post is having positive results already!
Ed
Edit**** an RTA allows you to see what you've done, it certainly can't tell you what you think sounds good. It also can show you that what a fellow thinks is "8k" is actually 4K. No one "needs" one to build xovers but if you care about understanding them it helps a lot.




« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 03:49:13 PM by Ed Schilling » Logged
Steve F
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 405


View Profile Email
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2013, 04:31:35 PM »

Well I can screw up most anything if I try hard enough.. Hell, I was hoping this thread was going to be about a good Carolina sauce.

I just finished hacksawing a driver that Henry gave me. Columbo would approve though.

Steve

Logged
firebottle
Newbie
*
Posts: 31


View Profile Email
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2013, 06:49:17 PM »

Ed.

Yep, you're right, as always.  My issue isn't and wasn't and doesn't continue to be whether or not you are right or wrong, I don't care.  What I do care about is the spirit in which it was described and discussed, as randy clearly indicated.  I just happen to agree with him.  Sorry you may not agree.  I think the whole Heil crossover, cap, coils, etc, etc, has indeed been beat to death here.  It's your forum and you indeed get to choose how things are conducted and what you choose to correct.  It's our choice to participate under those conditions or not.  From here forward I choose NOT.  Btw, thanks for the added dig on the class D, I needed that.  Be advised 126en's are on their way to you to replace the ones that were lost.  Nuff said, I'm done here.

Rob.

Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!