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Author Topic: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!  (Read 86483 times)
Henry
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« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2013, 06:07:42 PM »

Looks great, Henry. Could you explain how you connected it to the Crown amp? Does the Crown have speaker level inputs?  Thanks.

It does have a variety of line-level jacks, I use the RCA's.  I'm using Ed's trick... I think he called them "magic cables" that were supplied with the "Cube" subwoofer.  It's basically a cable that is hooked to the amp speaker binding posts on one end and RCA plugs on the other.  The signal is attenuated by using a resistor in the signal (+) line.  I had made a project box with binding posts on one side and RCA jacks on the other, connected by a resistor.  That allowed me to use IC's and speaker wire w/bananas from the amp and made it convenient for my situation back then. 

Unfortunately, the Crown likes lots of input voltage (1.4v to make full power), so it attenuated the signal a little too much using a 10k resistor.  I'm playing with lower resistor values as I now need to turn the amp almost all the way up to achieve enough bass.  But, it does make enough as is, but certainly isn't optimized. 

There are some inexpensive car stereo converters on amazon I'm considering that are signal adjustable via trim pots.  That may be a slick way to always have the proper signal level regardless of the amp I'm using... and it's cheap... and I don't have to make one.  Grin  They're called LOC (line out converters) and let folks tap trunk speakers wires for their add-on sub amps.

The other thing I need to address is the friggin' nasty blue led and interface screen lighting as it's made to show up in pro situations.  I can see some window tint film in my future.  Smiley

The Crown really does a nice job with low bass being class D and powerful... and only costs a little more than the 200w mono TBI amp I have (it's much better than the TBI IMO).  It just isn't quite plug and play and unobtrusive.

Also, the Crown has a good warranty and they have been kicked around by musicians for about three years now with good results.
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2013, 11:31:05 AM »

Henry, most class d amps can not take a common ground on the input! Check to see if the input rca grounds are connected on the crown. If they are not you may be killing it because the speaker output is almost certain to have a common ground unless you are using mono blocks!

1.4 V is low sens.! Normal is 2 to 2.5V, I think. Typical sources put out 2-4V with 2.5 being common, I think.

Anyway, do make sure the shields on the Crowns' left and right RCAs' are connected and if they are not..........

When are you coming? I'm still laid up and waiting on the damn cases I need!
Ed
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Henry
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« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2013, 01:08:31 PM »

Henry, most class d amps can not take a common ground on the input! Check to see if the input rca grounds are connected on the crown. If they are not you may be killing it...

No Ed, you're killing me!  Cheesy

I checked and there is continuity on the RCA input shields on the Crown.

Also, all of my preamp outputs are common grounded (the Clarinet, the Chime DAC, the Grounded Grid and the Truth).  I have continuity between the left and right channel RCA jacks outside (-) connections.  So even if I used line level inputting, I'd have the same issue if common input grounds were a problem.  Also, also, I've fed class D amps with those before with no issues... I've never hear about that.    But I don't know that much either and appreciate the heads up.  Smiley

Are you thinking about the class D outputs?  I was careful to consider the Crown's speaker output grounding considerations, but unless I use it full-range to drive the Heil/Horns or connect it to another sub amp, I shouldn't have a problem, right?  And, this one should go into fault mode and save itself... I hope.  It has a good warranty.  Cheesy

I could have those input voltage numbers wrong.  It seems to be a common theme among home users that a signal boost is needed to make it work best.  Some guys are using this to drive their main speakers and their preamps aren't delivering enough signal.  My experience with the magic cables is consistent from what I've read.

You're already picking on my class D monster.  Stop it.  Grin Grin Grin  

I'm going to try to come down maybe Friday or Saturday and make you a subwoofer class D amp convert... I'll let you know for sure.  We can try FFRS in tandem.  Wink

PS- You didn't even tell how kick-ass my bucket sub looked.  Man, that hurts.  Grin
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 01:13:25 PM by Henry » Logged
Ed Schilling
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« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2013, 01:32:49 PM »

Crap, Yes, I was thinking of the outputs! I must be still dazed.
Either day is cool. I'm just waiting and hoping I'll heal. My mobility is severely limited.

"Sensitivity (@ 4 ohms): 1.4 Vrms".....I wonder if it is 2.8 at 8 ohms? I've never noticed an input sens. based on speaker load.
Ed
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Henry
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« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2013, 02:27:07 PM »

Thanks Ed, I was hoping it was you and not me this time.  Usually, it's me doing something weird, like buying an amp I can't stand to look at.  Or a bright lime green plastic stereo record player to restore. Try to find an idler wheel for a late '60's RCA portable sometime, insane money.  Costs more than the record player. Grin

I look forward to seeing your guys again, and that big lizard, of course.  It's finally summertime, eh?  Makes me want to feel the heat in the pink room.

Hey, I think I may have some F5 parts at the post office... maybe.  The guy waited almost a month to ship, btw. I have a few little projects to finish before I start that one.  I'll probably be seeing you much more during that process.  I should probably be thinking about gratuity gifts for you and Donald.  Maybe he'd like a lime green record player? Cheesy
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2013, 09:47:45 PM »

That Crown amp is a damn good sub amp!
Ed
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Henry
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« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2013, 09:07:50 AM »

That Crown amp is a damn good sub amp!
Ed

Thanks again Ed for the good visit and all the help you gave me... I knew you would and counted on it. Wink  I hope that leg continues to improve, it's still ugly after all this time.  You really took some abuse that day.  Shocked

On to the good stuff...  Wink  I've never heard his system sound better (except for the times Jim Dowdy's big lotto-winner amp is there).  That F5 clone seems to perfectly "fit" the chain with the Heil/Horns at the end.  Smiley

We had some seriously good listening with two bucket subs in place, with or without the Crown amp powering them.  The lesser powered TBI amp was no slouch and provided a dynamic show as well, but the loudest (very loud) passages showed differences.

The FFRS Mark4:20i is a no-brainer if you're subless... and it may make you rethink your current sub if you aren't.  Maybe the acoustic suspension design makes these things sound fast and "right".  And two are better than one.  Four may be insane with even lower distortion resulting from less excursion needed to provide the same output.

Guaranteed to generate zero remorse for spending the little cash and effort needed to build one.  Hell, have your kids do a collage on the outside (upside down, before installing the driver of course), if the look of a plastique bucket offends you.  Or have that family seamstress craft a "snuggie" for it.  Dress it like a really bad Peter Gabriel costume from the '70's.  Even "enable" it if patterned dots do it for you... an instant summer art project.  Just be careful, these are like eating potato chips.

BTW, Ed actually has a working 2-channel system set up in his pink room complete with a sub and three excellent sources (vinyl, cd, and computer).  Somebody... release the doves. Grin Grin Grin
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2wo
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« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2013, 09:03:03 PM »

I see you decided to go with the upscale "plastique" bucket  Grin...John
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"...there was a knock on the door and a voice shouted "Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms" and I thought it was a delivery"
Henry
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« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2013, 06:22:40 PM »

I see you decided to go with the upscale "plastique" bucket  Grin...John

I'm glad you noticed!  I'm looking at doing one more very soon.  One thing I noticed last night was the FFRS seems to articulate bass notes very well, it makes for a coherent presentation.  I've listened to a reference cut for years and for the first time, I noticed what was once rendered as a distant bass "thud", now has enough definition to clearly represent a large, loose-headed drum being struck with a soft-headed stick or mallet.  Suddenly, it made sense and I knew how the sound was made.  Jeez, that only took about 9 years.  Cheesy

That really surprised me in a good way.  Smiley

I think the "up-firing", acoustic suspension and paper cone all work together to make this much better than I would have ever guessed.  Wink
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2013, 07:47:47 PM »

Well, I ordered the Crown XLS 1000. I could not swing the 2500 that Henry has but I think this one will be just fine and still overkill! We'll see. Should be here Mon.
Ed
https://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=245-500
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Henry
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« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2013, 05:53:00 AM »

New toy!!! Always a good time.  Grin

Maybe you can figure out a better way to introduce a signal to it.  I'm using only 680R on the speaker level ---> line level input... and it still seems a little weak with my low power tube amps. Huh  It'll be interesting to see if yours behaves the same as mine in that respect.
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Capt. Z
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« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2013, 08:21:34 AM »

Nice amp Ed. Great to see that it even has a cross over build in, so it can be used just like a sub-woofer amp. Only thing missing is an automatic on/off mode, but then you probably can leave it on 24/7.
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2013, 10:15:20 AM »

Hey guys, y'all know me....I am "cheap but effective". I would not have ordered an amp if I had one! Henry has been letting me use his TBI. On Mon., if the XLS 1000 is as good as Henry's 2500 I'll change recommended amp with instructions on how to use it with a high level connection. Henry is using a 680 ohm resistor and thinks it could be lower but that is already pretty low!

Henry, are you gain controls wide open with 10K or 1K to get any output? What about the 680?

Ed
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Henry
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« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2013, 11:34:46 AM »

Hey Ed,
At 9,800 ohms I was a few clicks away from wide open on the Crown mated to the 300b amp.  With 680 ohms, I'm at 2:00 for FFRS and 3:30 for the tbi subs using that same tube amp.  The Carina seems to yield the same.  So, I have some headroom, but I'd feel better about it if the settings were <12:00 (for some reason).  With the F5 making a joyous noise in the pink mosque, we had the two FFRS's running at about 11:00.  So it appears the amp's wattage has an affect on where to set the volume pots.

I'm not even sure if those aforementioned times are AM or PM, EST or EDT.  I'm so confused. Cheesy
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Henry
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« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2013, 05:26:35 PM »

...if the XLS 1000 is as good as Henry's 2500...

I predict the xls2500 is about 150% better than the xls1000.  Model numbers matter.  Wink
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