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Author Topic: Bright room & GHH  (Read 20185 times)
steve f
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« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2013, 06:07:18 PM »

I placed the pot before the tweeter, since ver.1 is easy to modify. It's an easy way to experiment. Then substitute with resistors when the sound feels right. I haven't touched ver.2 yet.

An interesting side note. Solid state and OTL both benefit from slight attenuation in my room. My PP tubes didn't need it. A bit of high frequency rolloff perhaps?

Steve
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Magidrakee
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« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2013, 07:56:22 PM »

I have found some cheap 3.3uf caps to test with the v2 series crossover. It is definite step in the right direction, at least for me (my ears, my room, my type of music, whatever Wink. I feel like I am getting my horns and their addictiveness back. With the 4.7uf, I feel my ears are "closing" over the brightness, and fatigue after only a few minutes of listening. After some very subjective tests with a tone generator (I wish I had a way to measure), it all seems to happen in the >16khz range (I can, to my own surprise, still hear 18~19). I guess it's not always good to have a flat freq response at those levels...?? My ears seems to appeciate the rolloff anyways...

I am ordering a few more better quality "fast" caps with different values and will continue my quest.

Cheers
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steve f
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« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2013, 11:35:24 PM »

Just an educated guess here. Probably the correct range is 4-4.2uf. The original value is a good one for most people. Because there really isn't any side wall reflections due to the figure eight dispersion of the Heil, I don't think that a big correction is necessary for optimum results. I'm curious to know your final choice.

Steve
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steve f
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« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2013, 12:40:23 PM »

Update: I'm still playing around with Heil levels and the ver.1 crossovers. I keep tuning incrementally lower volumes. I removed the subs from the system as I am able to corner load the GHH's. Differences of (just guessing) 0.25 DB are apparent. I first read of this effect in Linkwitz' blog on his Linkwitzlab site. Orion speakers BTW. Aczel (The Audio Critic) very recently posted an updated review concerning Don Barringer's final adjustments, and the difficulties of getting there. At first, I thought yeah right... sarcasm intended. Well, they are correct. Especially when I go to the OTL amp, the changes though subtle, do make a difference. I've been listening for days and probably won't be done messing around with it for a week.

Steve  Cool
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steve f
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« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2013, 08:04:08 AM »

Update 2. Got it done for version1 crossover. I'm going to rebuild it with a normal and cut position switch. The trouble with leaving in the pot is they don't track well enough. To hold the pot value for measurement, I glued the shaft in place!

Steve   Wink
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Magidrakee
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« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2013, 08:18:39 PM »

And here is my update on the v2 cap replacement experiment...

I tried Solens @ 2.7, 3.3, 3.9 along with the original Dayton Audio @ 4.7uf. About a day on each, with many different types of music.

All around, the 2.7uf sounds best to me. I don't think I would go under that value, it sounds just right as it is. I may eventually mess with other caps brands just for fun, since the solens seem a little harsh, but other then that... I'm now happy with the GHH.
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Capt. Z
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« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2013, 02:19:17 AM »

Well, yesterday afternoon I also did some 'playing around' with the cap. Since I felt that the top of the Heil was a little to dominant, I replaced the 4.7 with a 3.3 cap. Things sounded a lot warmer and the top was definitely turned down, but I think that was just a little to much for my taste. So last night I removed the 3.3 cap and put a 3.9 cap in. Haven't listened since then, but will do so later on today.

The beauty on Ed's design is that you can easily play around with the x-over and adjust it to the sound you prefer. Since my x-over is put together with all screw down terminals, it only takes me 5 minutes to change the caps.

Everybody's room and preferences are different and this makes it easy to adjust the sound to your need and likings. Some people do it with a DSP, but I would hate to introduce a low priced A/D and D/A converter in my signal chain. As the say: Less is more.

On most commercial speaker designs you would have to do major surgery to achieve the same.
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steve f
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« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2013, 05:50:33 AM »

Capt. Z & Magidrekee,

Thanks guys. I will try your suggestions on v2. Have you discovered that very small changes made significant differences to the sound? I really haven't much experience with series crossovers, but everything I've read suggests that for first order designs, there is a slight advantage. For those of us with OTL amps, the load to the amp should improve too. When I played with v1, I found myself making slight changes every few days, because one day wasn't enough. It's funny that a poorly designed speaker, either by design, junk drivers, or both is readily apparent to me, but a solid design takes time to tweak. I'm curious to learn if you are happy with the changes, or if you will continue to experiment. Take care.

Steve
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Capt. Z
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« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2013, 07:39:28 AM »

Hi Steve;

As you probably can recall, I mentioned a few posts earlier, that I played with around with different caps before and preferred the 4.7. However, now, a few weeks/month later I felt compelled to make some adjustments. I also put up my old speakers so my ears propably demand a certain response from both speakers.

I guess part of it has to do that I had the Horns with the Super tweeter before, so I was used to the upper frequency extension. Though the Horns with Super tweeter had less output on the extreme upper frequency then the Heil with the 4.7 cap.

So i can understand people, who had the Horns without the Super tweeter and loving the Horns, using a 2.7 or similar cap.

Also, every bodies room and set-up is different and the acoustics in it as well.

The beauty with the GHH that it is very easy and inexpensive to tweak the x-over to you liking.

Let's hear from others what they are using (cap wise)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 07:53:25 AM by Capt. Z » Logged
Magidrakee
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« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2013, 11:10:13 AM »

Have you discovered that very small changes made significant differences to the sound?

It seemed pretty linear and predictable to me. I don't think it will take much time for you to figure out.

I guess part of it has to do that I had the Horns with the Super tweeter before, so I was used to the upper frequency extension. Though the Horns with Super tweeter had less output on the extreme upper frequency then the Heil with the 4.7 cap.

So i can understand people, who had the Horns without the Super tweeter and loving the Horns, using a 2.7 or similar cap.

You have a point. But, I also think it has a lot to do with musical tastes. I'm a big rock and modern metal listener, and those badass drummers go hard on the cymbals all the time. Distortion guitars also have a lot of information in the upper frequencies. I felt it was a little overwhelming with the 4.7, but probably would not have noticed as much if I listened only to classical music, for example.

Like you said, the beauty with Ed's design is that we can actually play with the xover... and put it to our taste. For sure, I'm glad I did because I also learned a lot in a field I was completely unfamiliar with. Thanks to the great people on this forum.
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Magidrakee
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« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2013, 12:58:04 PM »

Let's hear from others what they are using (cap wise)

I guess we're the only ones messing with Ed's design! Heretics...

I received mundorf supreme caps @ 2.7uf this morning. They sound wonderful compared to the solens. I guess I'm done with the crossover.

Now if only I could swing a Truth and an OTL...




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Capt. Z
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« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2013, 02:50:10 PM »

The caps I bought here in the UK say: Monacor. I don't think that  Monacor makes their own caps. They do look like Solen, so they could be rebranded Solen caps.

What difference do you here between the Solen and the Mondorf caps?

A pair of Mundorf caps are still over $ 50, so it's a little on the expensive side to just try them.
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steve f
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« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2013, 05:07:35 PM »

Yeah there are only a few heretics messing with the GHH. For anyone using the v1 crossover, I found that one ohm was enough attenuation.

Think I have a pair of 3.9 caps in my parts bin. I'll try that for v2.

V2 and OTL are the way to go for tubes. I prefer v1 for SS. Go figure.
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Magidrakee
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« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2013, 08:04:20 AM »

The caps I bought here in the UK say: Monacor. I don't think that  Monacor makes their own caps. They do look like Solen, so they could be rebranded Solen caps.

What difference do you here between the Solen and the Mondorf caps?

A pair of Mundorf caps are still over $ 50, so it's a little on the expensive side to just try them.

Yeah I know. The Solens sounded "grainy" and "harsh" to me (hell... my cheap 50ยข Bennics seemed to sound better). I wanted to get some Daytons but Parts Express asked for an insane amount for shipping to Canada. In fact, I found a canadian online dealer that had almost-free shipping and great price for the Mundorfs (2 x 20$ cad). After reading the reviews... I could not resist. I had a good laugh when I received them... they are BIG.

It might be the expectation bias, but the mundorfs sound a lot more natural and relaxed to me. I don't know if they really are worth the price though. If you can get your hands on cheap dayton precision audio in the UK, I think they are probably your best choice.

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Capt. Z
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« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2013, 09:55:12 AM »

Had some time to listen to the GHH with the 3.9 cap. Definitely more laid back and non-fatigue sound. Sound is also a lot warmer and fuller.

However, the 4.7 Cap gave a lot more detail and were leaner sounding.

I wonder if would get the 'golden middle' if I took two 2.2 caps and paralleled them.

Any thoughts before I order some more caps?

Also any recommendations on some good caps? (brand)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 11:42:08 AM by Capt. Z » Logged
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