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Author Topic: Home-made "V2" crossover needs a review  (Read 8906 times)
Magidrakee
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« on: January 31, 2013, 11:01:23 AM »

Hi guys, I would like to have your thoughts on my "V2" home-made crossover before I solder everything inside the "box". Had a pretty good deal on a pair of heils so I decided to build it myself. It seems to work great, although it feels a little bright on some recordings (a proper review of the horny heils will follow in a few days). It may be normal, I never had the V1 so I can't compare. I am no electronics wiz, so I want to make sure I have not done anything wrong. And don't worry, it won't stay on top of the horns like this! (btw, why are the diaphragm wires that tiny?)

Parts are:
Jantzen 0.91mH 15 AWG Air Core Inductor
Dayton Audio PMPC-4.7 4.7uF 250V Precision Audio Capacitor

Thank you!
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2013, 09:41:26 PM »

Magidrakee,
It looks ok as far as I can tell. The Heil wires have always been that color and size. Get a barrier strip from Rat Shack, I use the small "European style" and cut a section off of the strip and use 2 sided tape to stick it to the top of the Horns right behind the Heil. Use this for the connection of the wire from xover and the Heil wires.
Hope this helps.
Ed
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Magidrakee
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« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2013, 07:26:41 AM »

Thanks a lot Ed. The barrier strip is a very good idea, one doesn't want to add any tension to such a small wire... Will do.

It sounds damn good by the way. Especially for live recordings. Overproduced rock and metal is a little bright however. I suspect some mastering engineers don't have access to that kind of treble clarity in the first place...
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Capt. Z
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« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2013, 10:14:53 AM »

Nice work.

I decided to do away with any additional wires, connectors or jumpers, so I placed the x-over directly into the speaker cable of the GHH. The x-over just lays behind the Horns out of sight,. so I probably won't bother with a 'project box' since it is out of sight.
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Magidrakee
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« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2013, 10:56:42 AM »

Nice. What kind of speaker wire is this?

I don't really have a choice to build a box for my crossover: 3 cats and a young boy.
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Capt. Z
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« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2013, 12:33:57 PM »

Morrow SP1

I think it is solid core silver wire, 6 strands in one run.
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carlsor
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« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2013, 12:15:30 PM »

Attached are pictures of my V2 crossover box using a 6x4x2 plastic project box from Radio Shack. Tacky rubber feet from ACE were stuck to the bottom of the box to keep it from sliding. The components are a 14ga Erse .91mh and a 4.7uf Auricap.  I also have a 9ohm and .47uf Zobel filter across the Horns which may or may not be necessary depending on the amp.

I installed a circuit board to provide secure termination of wires and components.  Sound damping material was placed on the bottom of the box and under the top to reduce vibration.  The components were secured with silicon sealant for further damping.

Direct wiring is used from the amp and the Horns and Heils to avoid any sonic degradation from unnecessary speaker connectors.
I used CAT 6 wire (4x23ga twisted pairs) from the amp to the box. VH audio 21ga solid core single crystal Continuous Cast Copper wire with Teflon foam insulation ($2.90/ft) was used for wires leading to the speakers.

The Horn-Heil combo with the crossover sounds incredible! Treble detail is so real. This totally blows away the Horns by themselves.  I use a modded Behringer as a crossover-equalizer to limit the Horns to 80 Hz and up with the Cube getting the base.  After considerable effort with a sound meter I found that no correction was needed above 2000 Hz which is the crossover region and the Heils.  What a match between drivers!

This crossover design is pure genius (or luck). Instead of controlling which frequencies go through the speakers, this design uses an inductor and capacitor to shunt the signal around the speaker drivers above and below certain frequencies. 
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horizons59
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« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2013, 04:24:29 PM »

Nice job!

In another thread some users were lowering the cap value to slightly raise the Heil crossover point and therefore lower the brightness a tad.  Thoughts?

I have only had my horns for a few weeks and I am so blown away that I can't imagine them getting much better. Sold my Martin Logans. I guess I need to get over the idea that adding the Heils will destroy some of the magic of the horns.  I have spent more hours listening to music with the horns in two weeks than I have listened to other speakers in the last few years. Ed's babies get you back into the music.
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carlsor
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« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2013, 05:22:39 PM »

horizons59,

The Horns sound "right" and musical by themselves. Whatever they lack is not normally missed.  The Heils bring out a whole lot more treble musical detail which can be much less forgiving to poor source material and edgy/bright amplifiers.  I would suggest the Heils only to persons with super clean sounding electronics.  In the right system the Heils add more magic and musical realism.

According to my inductor/capacitor calculations, the Heils start playing music above about 1500 Hz while the Horns start rolling off above 8000 Hz.  A 3.9uf cap would merely extending the rolloff of the Horns to a higher frequency and not change when the Heils kick in.  The only way this could be reducing treble response is that the extended Horn frequency response is out of phase with the Heils to actually cancel some the treble.  This could also explain the loss of detail or softness that some report with lower value caps. There are also persons who report being less satisfied with the 3.9uf cap.  I'm happy with the 4.7uf cap, but I can't hear any frequency above 10K. My dogs aren't howling so it can't be too bad.

My gut feeling is that adding a 1 ohms resistor in series with the Heils inside the inductor circuit would be better than lowering the cap value. This would also lower the Horn rolloff frequency to about 6800 Hz which may also lower the treble a bit.  I have no idea how driver phase interaction would be affected. I might try this.

Hard rooms and ceiling corners can increase treble brightness unless treated with high WAF materials.  The initial 50 hours of any new component or wire break-in can also be ugly in the treble.  I think too many evaluations are made before components break in sufficiently.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 06:48:31 PM by carlsor » Logged
horizons59
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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2013, 01:13:34 PM »

carlsor:

Thanks for the detailed response. I am totally unfamiliar with series crossovers. How would you raise the Heil xover point should you want to with this design?

TIA
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steve f
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« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2013, 02:25:10 PM »

First, just go with Ed's recommended values. I think you'll find them spot on, or extremely close to right. In my very live room, I added about an ohm of resistance to the Heils to pad them down just a tiny bit.

steve
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2wo
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« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2013, 06:29:57 PM »

Hey Carlsor.

I like your setup. This is my V1 setup. As you can see. I use a special substrate material with Constrained. Anti. Resonate. Dampening.

I have C.A.R.D.board shipped to me from my connections all over the world. If you need some , I can probably hook you up. Grin    
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 07:20:00 PM by 2wo » Logged

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Magidrakee
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« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2013, 12:23:20 PM »

Good job guys!

If you don't feel fatigue with the 4.7uf cap, just sit back and enjoy the music!

However, if you can't hear past 10Khz, you probably don't need no cap at all (see first thread about the series crossover).

Cheers,

Charles


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horizons59
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« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2013, 10:48:00 PM »

I'm using a .5 ohm mills resistor in series with the Heils which is just about right . I also have a Martin Logan sub under each horn. I will add some pix if any one is interested. I am in Orange County Ca if anyone wants to hear the GHH. They are the finest speakers I have ever owned. Ed is a genius.
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Magidrakee
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« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2014, 09:33:18 AM »

Sure, post those pics!

I have yet to try the resistor in series with the heils... I think this will be my next test.

For fun I put back the 4.7uf cap since I now own a Truth pre and a TS SE-OTL. I get to the same conclusion as with my other electronics: to bright for my ears. 2.7 still does the trick for me!

Charles
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