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Author Topic: New "crossover" schematic and diagram  (Read 38964 times)
Ed Schilling
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« on: October 06, 2012, 08:48:30 AM »

Ok guys, here you go....The coil I'm using is .9 mh....the one in the xover is 1.0mh. I think this should be fine but if you want to order a coil try a .9mh. The 1.0 may be better, I just don't know.....yet. It's still early but the results were so good I figured I'd throw it out there....

I have not used this with high power amps yet, so take it easy fellas!

Here's basic schematic and the mod to stock xover.  Just snip the wires and bend them so they do not touch. Should be obvious how to "undo it"! Some xovers are built with posts vertical. This does not matter, just hook up as in diagram.

You'll have to log in to see images.
Ed
edit***** I doubt this will work with most speaker systems. Try if you want but don't think that just because it's a fail in your application that it does not "work" here. The reason it "seems" to work is due to the specific drivers.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 12:54:39 PM by Ed Schilling » Logged
Ed Schilling
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« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2012, 08:34:07 PM »

Here's a decent article on series vs. parallel crossovers............for those interested in this sort of stuff....

http://sound.westhost.com/parallel-series.htm

Notice the "new crossover" is not a proper series crossover. Which is fine by me! I didn't start out to build one, I just wanted to use the Heils and didn't have the caps for a parallel network. Protecting the Heil was my main concern and I still am not sure that this is adequate. I "think" it is and certainly with small amps it'll be fine, but for those of you with "big ones", go easy!
Ed
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 09:10:59 PM by Ed Schilling » Logged
steve f
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« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2012, 09:01:28 AM »

I couldn't do it. I just couldn't bring myself to jury rig the crossover to try version 2. Besides, I want to compare the differences between them. I'm tempted to order a pair of 0.95 Mh coils to "split the difference" between Ed's original 0.9 and the 1.0 coils used in the original crossover. Now all I need to do is buy enough stuff from parts express to get free shipping.

steve   Cool

PS: Going through my parts bins, I found a pair of of 1.0 Mh coils. I'll get the soldering iron out during halftime (Go Bears!). I did try just twisting leads, and didn't care for it as much as the original. Of course this is just one channel, and nothing written in stone. I do hear more of the Horn like Henry said, but highs seem rolled off a bit. Might just be the recording though.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 10:19:27 AM by steve f » Logged
Ed Schilling
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« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2012, 11:41:04 AM »

Steve, the only cut "that matters" is the one between the cap and coil. It's easy to reverse. Since you have the coils there's no need, I guess. Check your wiring Smiley, the highs should not be rolled off, but hey, this is why we ask for opinions! I don't need or want a bunch of "fan boys" Smiley I respect honest opinions and don't mind them being said in public, so long as they come from "experience" Smiley That said, your hearing sucks....hahahahahah.

Ed
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steve f
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« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2012, 01:11:06 PM »

Ed, my hearing sucks just fine.  LOL, if I wanted abuse, I could have visited Peoria.

I don't think that the Heils are rolled off. It just sounds that way, a bit, not a lot.  It very well could be an effect of driver overlap as the Fostex is more opened up. I'm honestly not sure.  This is a test tone and measurement thing.

When I switch out amps and go to the SE-OTL, it's a different story. The "Version 2" sounds superior. Only one crossover coil and raising upper impedance from 4 to what, about 12... makes for a happy OTL. I went from barely ably to use it with Heils to filling the listening room again. Maybe better than I had with just the Horns. Image depth changed a bit. It is more forward but still extends back.

I look forward to two different opinions. I wonder what guys like Capt. Z will say about their OTL amps. I also wonder how Zen amps, with their preference for low impedance speakers, work out.

I'm going to leave the change in for awhile.

steve   Cool
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2012, 01:32:17 PM »

 "if I wanted abuse, I could have visited Peoria."

Now, that is funny, I really did LOL OL.
Ed
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Capt. Z
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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2012, 02:06:30 PM »

Hi Steve;

I only had one Heil hocked up with the old x-over, since I am still waiting for my second one to arrive on Tuesday, that's if the delivery guy will leave it with one of the neighbors, since I will be off during the estimated delivery time, due to work.

However, my first impression with the one Heil was a lot more information and detail then the regular Horn with my Super Tweeter. I could hear the slight edginess that some described here. Could be due to the Solen Cap.

Today I had too much time on my hand, so I changed my x-over to the 'newest' version, therefore I will not be able to hear what the Horns with the old x-over would have sounded like.

Well, now my expectations have been set very high after what I first heard and now have read here.

Will give some listening impressions later on.
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steve f
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« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2012, 05:16:50 PM »

Capt. Z,

Ah but is that edginess of just detail? (I'm not sure either  Wink) I gave up trying to quantify the differences. Both versions are quite good. TS OTL amp just plain loves version 2. I'll bet you come to the same conclusion. My ATI with lots of power and a high damping factor doesn't seen to care as much. The OTL in any case has more detail. I am playing an old Mickey Hart classic "Planet Drum" and I love the sound. Dang near can tell where the artists are striking instruments. Depth is expanded. Width is a bit narrower, because of the depth change. Height remains about the same, as it should, as the Heil is a waveguide. After you get the stereo pair going, I'm really interested in your impressions. As good as I thought the Zen C was with the Horns, the combo of HH V2 and TS OTL is really something much better. The bigger amp, like yours should really sing. Take care.

steve   Cool
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steve f
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« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2012, 05:07:56 PM »

Okay Ed, Henry, and Lee,

I concede, well at least I do concerning tube amps. I've been listening to some really well recorded music, that I know sounds rather lifelike. Version 2 works really nicely. I still think that there might be just a bit of high frequency drop off. Then again maybe I'm not drinking enough lately. So make the crossover mod, or if you haven't yet bought the Horned Heils, what in hell are you waiting for? Then go out and buy one of Bruce's OTL amps to match up with it. Look at all of the money you'll save instead of buying Wilson & Audio Research. What would make it better? Doubling up the system for even more dynamics.  Anybody else remember double Advents?

steve   Cool
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Capt. Z
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« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2012, 11:54:56 AM »

I need to confess that I was one of the few blessed people (by Ed) who was able to hear the Heils in Ed's pink room when he first 'invented' them. Unfortunately there were some amp issues, so I could not hear the full potential of the Heils, and since then Ed modded the x-over a few times.

The second Heil just arrived a few hours ago. Since then I had a little time to listen to Stacey Kent and a little to Classic FM.

Before I got the second Heil I used the first one with the 'old' x-over briefly. As stated in one of my posts above, I thought that the highs had more energy than the Horns with Super Tweeter. So I was expecting to hear a totally different speaker, once the second Heil arrived.

Having to much time on my hand last Sunday, I did change the cross-over to the new version.

First brief impression:
The Horns still sound much like the Horns.
The highs are different then with the Super Tweeter. I would say there is less upper extension. Please do not see this as a negative thing. Not that the Horns with Super Tweeter had too much treble, it's just a little different flavor.
I now understand when people say that applause on CDs sound like rain on a tin roof. With the Heils there is no tin roof. So that is an extremely good thing.
There sure is a big change in the mids. Mids are full and warm. Not sure if the mids are slightly too warm, or if it's just the recordings I am listening to.
The mids are definitely more natural. I know this may be a 'stupid' saying, but the mids are a lot 'blacker'. I have a difficult time finding a better word to describe what I hear.

So much for right now. Need to listen to more music and maybe hock up the Horn-Super Tweeter combo occasionally, so I can get a better handle on what the differences are.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 01:47:09 PM by Capt. Z » Logged
Henry
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« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2012, 06:55:12 PM »

I think the 1st Horn/Heil crossover presentation was such that the Horns complimented the Heils.  In the 2nd, it seems the Heils compliment the Horns, if that makes any sense.  Tongue

At least in the all important middle, I think the 2nd version is the bomb.

At Ed's last week, I've never heard his EL34 amp sound better with version 2.0.  I thought the combo sounded natural and coherent throughout, and I enjoyed my short time with them very much.  I'm looking forward to getting home next week to play around a little more with the Model 2/Heil and a few of my amps. 

I've only heard the new crossover powered by wimpy tube amps, no OTL's or SS.   Cool
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Henry
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« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2012, 07:13:30 PM »

...What would make it better? Doubling up the system for even more dynamics.  Anybody else remember double Advents?

steve   Cool

 Grin Double Advents were beasts back in the day.  Fun stuff.

I'm envisioning the Model IV... just hang one Model 2 from the ceiling directly above the bottom Model 2/Heil via rods.  High WAF.  I guess it's up to me and homey.   Grin
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Capt. Z
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« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2012, 07:42:48 AM »

Just saw that my subwoofer x-over was set way too high. So I reset it to around 50 Hz.

That clears up the lower mids a lot and the excessive warmth may be removed.

More listening required.
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greenvalve
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« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2012, 03:41:59 PM »

With the new crossover, the DC resistance of the coil is going to make more of a difference than its inductance. This parallel / shunt configuration would better protect the Heil by using a large gauge, non air core coil, like the Jantzen C-Coil toroidal inductors. The lower resistance should also improve dynamics.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 07:43:19 PM by greenvalve » Logged
Ed Schilling
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« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2012, 11:01:52 AM »

Hey Buzz, you know they work together......so nobody get the "great idea" to replace the inductor with a resistor:)! The ones in the stock xover (1.0) and my .9 are 18 gauge air core, resistance ~.48 ohm.
I've not tried bigger or smaller gauge in the same value. I won't discourage anyone from experimenting, but if you melt those diaphragms, "it's on you" Wink. It's a balancing act between inductance/resistance/safety/ output....... .9-1.0 18 gauge, ~.5 ohm seems to hit the sweet spot. Thanks for the input! Always a good thing to get more info!

Ed


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