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Author Topic: Horn vs. Heiled Horn?  (Read 17659 times)
Capt. Z
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« on: May 08, 2012, 05:24:20 AM »

Thanks to Buzz's video of the Hornfest my interest of the Heiled Horn has flared up again. I really liked what I heard at the end of the video.

I did have the chance to hear the Heiled Horns once before in Ed's Pink Room, but the amp available was not working properly, and we had no 'regular' Horns on the side to compare.

I am aware that the Horn is your true Single driver Speaker and the Heiled Horn is more a 2 way speaker.

Also, the main part of the music is re-produced by two totally different drivers in the different speakers.

So I wonder if someone could give me a comparison between the two. I am especially interested in the linearity of the two.
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2012, 08:42:53 AM »

Hey Capt.,
The two sound "the same" in many areas . They sound like a single driver as far as integration goes. The efficiencies of the two are almost identical. The xover is extremely low and the slopes and points are asymmetrical. The "real" secret is the moving mass of the system is still insanely low.....<4 grams and the efficiency is still very high. The Heils are almost a resistor as far as load goes.....the impedance curve is flat....so as in the single driver the load presented to the amp is an easy one.

All speakers are a compromise as we all know......mine are no different. Think of the Horned Heils as a "performance package" added to the Horns. They are a "2 way".....but much different than the typical 2 way that we are used to.

Hope this helps.
Ed

 
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Capt. Z
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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2012, 10:47:28 AM »

Think of the Horned Heils as a "performance package" added to the Horns.

 

More like The Horns on Steroids.  Smiley
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steve f
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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2012, 04:28:17 PM »

I figured that Ed has talked with the ESS guys, so I'll ask here first. As far as the great Heil driver goes, are older drivers the same as the newer ones? I have acess to a pair from old AMT cabinets. If efficiency etc are different, well I'd have Ed designing a crossover variation. Maybe.
 Cool steve
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2012, 04:58:47 PM »

Hey Steve, I speak with Ricky very often. AFAIK the diaphragms have been improved and will fit the old structures. I "think" the efficiencies are close enough, but the new diaphragms in the old structures should fix that. I will verify this.
Ed
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steve f
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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2012, 06:55:47 PM »

The oldies work. I am just wondering if they are worth the trouble to integrate them. Might be wiser to keep saving for your new ones. I really hate do over projects.

Steve
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benbnguyen
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2012, 09:59:47 AM »

I have Ed's horn in various configurations:- 1. Single Fostex 104 sigma driver/ the original driver
                                                          2. As above driver with coating
                                                          3. Fostex 128 driver
                                                          4. Heil + Fostex 128
The Heil+Fostex 128 combo. is the best sound.  Extended highs with palpable midrange.  I placed my horn with Heil driver about 6 inches from back wall.  This I feel blends the two driver the best.  Imaging is still wonderful.
I drove the combo with Truth Pre, ASL Tulip SET 3.4W and Sony Play Station as CDP (bought at local Salvation Army for $10.00)
Highly recommended Heil/Fostex 128 combo.  I prefer the sound over LS3/5a's and SP-100 (Spendor)
Ben
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Cheerwino
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« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2012, 06:47:57 AM »

I'm running Horned Heils with a vintage AMT driver. Haven't listened to old vs new Heils side-by-side to know if they sound or test out different from new ones. I don't notice any problems and haven't gotten new diaphragms to find out.

As to Capt. Z's question, I think the Heils are just different than the Horns. Insightful, I know Roll Eyes. The standard Horns have an immediacy and punch right in the mids. It's all about the mids, where most of the music is! The Horned Heils have a more expansive presentation with sound coming out the front and the back and a liquid clarity in the mid-to-highs that the Horns lack. To my ears, the Heils have a pleasant roll off on the very top end the way the Horns roll off on the bottom end. It never distorts or cracks, it just doesn't try to do what it can't. The music sounds un-amplified.

I can imagine some folks may prefer the base Horns. They are comfortable with the sound, their room is set up for 'em. Introduce the Heils and all of a sudden there is a wider sound dispersion that a room may not be set up to absorb properly (versus the very direct sound from the Horn driver). It's just a different speaker.

With the extended clarity in the highs of the Heils, your ears are no longer focused mainly on the mids but on the whole sound. There seems to be more information there and some folks may not like the difference.

I'm now firmly sold on the importance of room treatments. I hauled a car full of fiberglass panels into Hornfest uninvited and I think we all enjoyed the difference they made (but that could have been the liquor). Due to the wider dispersion and sound out the back, I think the Heils benefit greatly from treatments to the front and sides of the room.
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Capt. Z
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« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2012, 07:00:22 AM »

Thanks cheerwino;

I would love to try them in my listening room as well. However, finding some AMT drivers in the UK is extremely difficult. Found one pair on ebay.co.uk but they will be shipped from California. Import Taxes, VAT and shipping adds close to 50 % on top. Plus I need Ed's cross over. Just a little TOO much dough for me at the moment.  Cry Cry Cry Cry

Also wondering what the new Transcendent 300B will do to the Horns.
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2012, 07:25:56 AM »

Just for clarity...the Heils have flat response past 20K. Their roll off starts past 20K. This is in contrast to the 126's flat response to around 15-16K. Don't think for a second that the Heils have a top end comparable to the 126......if it sounds that way then one just found out where their hearing stops!

Sidney could easily hear a 20K warble tone from the other end of the house.......the average level of the sweep was 90db. Without the Heils there is nothing for her to hear! The 126 has a "claimed" response past 20k but in reality they are only flat to 15-16K with very little output above that relative to the midrange output.

I have found few people who can actually hear 16K in my room.....which is exactly why the Horns get away with "less than 20-20K response"!

I can listen to either and be quite happy. For the adventurous you can move xover points of the Horns around to tailor the sound.....I'd not change the high pass however. The Heils have lower distortion so I use as much of their bandwidth as I can.

Hope this helps!

Ed
ps .....Capt., shoot me email (not pm) I may have a way to help you get that pair in CA. or one from me w/o killing you!




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steve f
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« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2012, 03:12:29 PM »

I can still hear quite well in the higher frequencies, for an old guy. Maybe 6Db down. I think the reason the original horns are such a nice speaker is due to the frequency balance and nice polar response. When I played around with a couple of planar magnetic tweeters and a mono-polar Heil that is a bit smaller than the one Ed chose, (from model 4 I think) I noticed that although the frequency range increased, the subwoofer became a requirement. Most good horn systems don't play over about 16k.

I am also surprised that Cheerwino found that the HORNED HEILS needed room side treatments. I expected that because the Heils are a monopole driver, there would be nulls at the sides. Comb effects?

steve
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Pit Hinder
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« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2012, 01:53:22 AM »

Steve,

  "Rule 400,000".
400,000 divided by your top frequency = the bottom frequency you need to get a good balance.
Or divide by bottom freq. to calculate the top.

  Pit
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steve f
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« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2012, 04:32:10 AM »

Thanks Pit, I can't believe I hadn't heard of that before.

Cheerwino, Just curious, have you tried things like small wings on the sides of the Heils, or placed absorbent materials behind it? Room loading is probably a bigger deal in good sound reproduction than the amps we choose.

Steve
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Ed Schilling
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« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2012, 05:59:51 AM »

Steve, I'm afraid that many "speaker designers" have never heard of that either. The old timers knew it and it explains why many stereos with limited response sounded so "right". The ability of a system to play past 20k when the bottom only goes to 80 will result in a thin sound no matter how flat the response is, if you hear very well in the upper freq.

The good news is that few of us hear past 12-15K clearly so we are not "hurt" too much by the rule being disobeyed Smiley
On the other end....adding a sub to a system with limited top end will get the opposite result. My "guess" and opinion is this is more of a problem.

It is a good rule and every designer should know it whether they adhere or not.

Thanks Pit for pointing it out....I wonder how many guys you enlightened Smiley

Ed
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steve f
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« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2012, 08:20:03 AM »

That's why so many mini monitors have that famous BBC dip.
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