The Hornshoppe Forum
November 21, 2017, 10:36:02 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: SMF - Just Installed!
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
  Print  
Author Topic: John Kenny DAC  (Read 25733 times)
Capt. Z
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 419



View Profile Email
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2011, 09:52:38 AM »

There are always people that have to be right and they will go to great length to do so.

Bless Their Heart  Roll Eyes
Logged
bhobba
Newbie
*
Posts: 44


View Profile Email
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2011, 03:41:33 PM »

There are always people that have to be right and they will go to great length to do so.Bless Their Heart  Roll Eyes

I have engaged these Peter Aczel types before.  There is no way you can convince them their position is wrong.  The only reason I do it is because often they go unchallenged so some people may think their position is correct.  However rest assured I have no intention of letting this go on too long.  

On the forum I usually post to, SNA, they have a rule, you can't discuss double blind tests in the sections where you discuss various pieces of equipment like DAC's - that is confined to what they call the great debate section.  And reading some of those great debate threads is a very interesting experience.  I thought at first it was just to prevent these long threads that basically go nowhere in the area to discuss how stuff sounds - where each side simply retreats to their entrenched position.  But actually it is not that - the reason they gave is in participating in a thread where you are discussing the perceived differences in DAC's, Amps etc you are starting from the assumption such actually exists.  If you genuinely believe they all sound the same as proven by DBT's why do you want to discuss it to begin with?  After thinking about it I believe they have a point.

Thanks
Bill
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 05:01:37 PM by bhobba » Logged
bhobba
Newbie
*
Posts: 44


View Profile Email
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2011, 04:07:55 PM »

I'm trying not to go around circle so I'm going to ask you some questions to clear things up.
1. What type of capacitor are you talking about, passive crossover, active crossover, power supply, coupling capacitor, ...etc?
2. How was the “same value” ensured?  Was it by what's written on the capacitors or was it measured?  If latter, what device was used to measure it?
3. When you say “measuring exactly the same” where was the measurement taken from, at the output terminal of a device that has this capacitor, in front of the speaker driver, at the listening spot, or somewhere else?  And what kind of measurement, frequency response, farad, DC voltage, hum level, pulse measurement or something else?

The capacitors vary in type and I have heard them in two places - in passive crossovers and the output capacitor of a DAC.  The comparison was in two pieces of equipment where the only difference is in capacitor type eg in one DAC you have Solen Tin Foil and another DAC Duelund VCF Copper.  Everything was electrically the same - well as much as it could be anyway since of course all components have a tolerance.  

The same value was ensured by selecting it with that value.  However I know exactly what your issue will be - they will have different values due to tolerances.  Again my response is these comparisons have been done many times by many people and invariably one capacitor is preferred over the other.

By measuring exactly the same I mean when measured using the standard measuring equipment.  For example in the speakers I am familiar with the manufacturer creates each speaker with a tuning bay that he uses to match the speakers by measuring the frequency response.  Again I know what your issue will be - you need to subject it to a wide range of tests to determine measuring exactly the same.  My response is the capacitors themselves measure exactly the same ie Solen and Duelund measure exactly the same using any of the usual methods of measuring a capacitor - the only difference is in the DCR.

But really relevant to this thread is the fact it is easy to hear differences in DAC's where the only difference is the different output capacitor.  For example Db Audiolabs have done many double blind tests to determine the best output capacitor to use in their Tranquillity DAC's and the differences are usaully easy to hear.  This refutes the idea all DAC's sound the same.  And this has been done many times with different DAC's to ensure it is not component tolerances that is the cause.

Thanks
Bill  
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 04:28:27 PM by bhobba » Logged
sonic
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 396



View Profile
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2011, 04:23:26 PM »

I have engaged these Peter Aczel types before.  There is no way you can convince them their position is wrong.  The only reason I do it is because often they go unchallenged so some people may think their position is correct.  However rest assured I have no intention of letting this go on too long.
I've heard his name but never read what Peter Aczel wrote.  My replies are based on DBT standard established by the industry experts.  If you have issues with such test procedures, then your issue is with those experts, not me.  "Don't shoot the messenger."  

Bill, using the established industry standards, I challenged you because your belief is based on comparison method that doesn't even do precise level matching.  Also, you cannot underestimate the influence of placebo effect.  It works in subconscious level, you can't control it on your own no matter how hard you try.  That's why the proper DBT has to make sure it is controlled by the setup itself.  If not, you loose the objectivity in the result, meaning that it failed its objective.

Now, if you just said you chose DAC "x" over "y" out of your personal preference, I don't see whey that needs to be challenged in any way but that's not what you did.
Logged
bhobba
Newbie
*
Posts: 44


View Profile Email
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2011, 04:46:12 PM »

I've heard his name but never read what Peter Aczel wrote.  My replies are based on DBT standard established by the industry experts.  If you have issues with such test procedures, then your issue is with those experts, not me.  "Don't shoot the messenger."  Bill, using the established industry standards, I challenged you because your belief is based on comparison method that doesn't even do precise level matching.  Also, you cannot underestimate the influence of placebo effect.  It works in subconscious level, you can't control it on your own no matter how hard you try.  That's why the proper DBT has to make sure it is controlled by the setup itself.  If not, you loose the objectivity in the result, meaning that it failed its objective. Now, if you just said you chose DAC "x" over "y" out of your personal preference, I don't see whey that needs to be challenged in any way but that's not what you did.

Sonic, with all due respect, what I posted is fairly typical of what people post about audible differences in equipment from listening tests.  In a thread to discuss such things you are starting from the assumption audible differences do exist and one way to get a handle on them is to have a listening test.  If you believe all DAC's etc sound the same as proven by DBT's why even bother discussing it - simply get the cheapest piece of equipment that is competently engineered and be done with it.  Why you want to challenge people who believe differently is beyond me.  Most people are fully aware of the claims all competently designed pieces of equipment with the exception of speakers sound the same - I know I certainly am.  All you are going to do is rerun that debate which has been done over and over again.  In the end all that will happen is each side will say something like I don't agree with you.

And that's where I will leave it - I don't agree with you.  I enjoy checking out various pieces of equipment to see how they compare and reporting on those differences without the use of DBT's etc that IMHO are usually a waste of time.  Sometimes they are interesting and fun but the work involved in setting them up is a real pain.

Thanks
Bill
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 04:59:37 PM by bhobba » Logged
sonic
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 396



View Profile
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2011, 05:00:52 PM »

The capacitors vary in type and I have heard them in two places - in passive crossovers and the output capacitor of a DAC.  The comparison was in two pieces of equipment where the only difference is in capacitor type eg in one DAC you have Solen Tin Foil and another DAC Duelund VCF Copper.  Everything was electrically the same - well as much as it could be anyway since of course all components have a tolerance.  
So, this comparison was two DACs, each with different output caps.  Was the voltage at the output terminals of both units compared to see if they put out same voltage when playing a tone? 

BTW, wouldn't it have been a better comparison if both caps were wired with a toggle switch so that it can be compared through one DAC?

Quote
The same value was ensured by selecting it with that value.  However I know exactly what your issue will be - they will have different values due to tolerances.  Again my response is these comparisons have been done many times by many people and invariably one capacitor is preferred over the other.
Yes, the tolerance variation can change the frequency response if it's for crossover.  Regardless of how many times it's been done or who's done it, the capacitor will do what it dose based on their actual value. 

Quote
By measuring exactly the same I mean when measured using the standard measuring equipment.  For example in the speakers I am familiar with the manufacturer creates each speaker with a tuning bay that he uses to match the speakers by measuring the frequency response.  Again I know what your issue will be - you need to subject it to a wide range of tests to determine measuring exactly the same.  My response is the capacitors themselves measure exactly the same ie Solen and Duelund measure exactly the same using any of the usual methods of measuring a capacitor - the only difference is in the DCR.
One easy way to see if the crossover cap's values are comparably matched for auditioning is to see the frequency response.  If they are identical between the two, then you can listen and judge.  If not, the audible difference is caused by the crossover slope they cause.  If you don't believe me, try two crossover caps with same brand and labeled value but let their varying tolerance play out in sound.  Just try it.

Quote
But really relevant to this thread is the fact it is easy to hear differences in DAC's where the only difference is the different output capacitor.  For example Db Audiolabs have done many double blind tests to determine the best output capacitor to use in their Tranquillity DAC's and the differences are usaully easy to hear.  This refutes the idea all DAC's sound the same.  And this has been done many times with different DAC's to ensure it is not component tolerances that is the cause.
Not all DACs sound the same.  As I mentioned before, there are some that are made to sound different.  If you prefer those, by all means, go ahead.  What's considered transparent performance is the consistent output level throughout audio band and those are available at mere $100 these days.
One is frequency resoponse of $6500 disc player and the other is $149.




Logged
sonic
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 396



View Profile
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2011, 05:21:35 PM »

Sonic, with all due respect, what I posted is fairly typical of what people post about audible differences in equipment from listening tests.  In a thread to discuss such things you are starting from the assumption audible differences do exist and one way to get a handle on them is to have a listening test.  If you believe all DAC's etc sound the same as proven by DBT's why even bother discussing it - simply get the cheapest piece of equipment that is competently engineered and be done with it.  Why you want to challenge people who believe differently is beyond me.  Most people are fully aware of the claims all competently designed pieces of equipment with the exception of speakers sound the same - I know I certainly am.  All you are going to do is rerun that debate which has been done over and over again.  In the end all that will happen is each side will say something like I don't agree with you.

And that's where I will leave it - I don't agree with you.  I enjoy checking out various pieces of equipment to see how they compare and reporting on those differences without the use of DBT's etc that IMHO are usually a waste of time.  Sometimes they are interesting and fun but the work involved in setting them up is a real pain.
Bill, please reread the last sentence of my post that you were replying to.

their position is wrong.

That is simply wrong.



Again, as I have pointed out, this level matching issue is a furfy. 
Logged
bhobba
Newbie
*
Posts: 44


View Profile Email
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2011, 03:38:46 AM »

Hi Guys

A guy (Gary) has just left with the JK Saber and will do a write up comparing it to his Audio GD Ref 5 on SNA.  But we did a bit of a listening session for a few hours between the JK, WFS DAC 2 and Tranquility SE.  My PDX is having a bit of work done on it right now so could not be included.

Ok we confirmed the order of the DAC's as (worse to best) WFS, JK Saber and Tranquility SE.  But Gary preferred the JK to the Tranquility even though he thought the Tranquility was the better DAC, as I did.  The reason was, as everyone who has heard the Tranquility SE has noted, it has a very beguiling, liquid, fluid and mercury like mid-range that was recognized as better than the other DAC's, but was not to his taste - evidently the musical thing which the Tranquility definitely does is not his preference.

Gary was surprised with the WFS - glare in the upper mid-range lower treble with some sibilance issues and quite cold.  This was because many people on the internet were saying how good it was - but really in this comparison it was not up to the other DAC's - in fact after a while it became un-listenable because you easily locked onto its deficiencies after listening to the DAC's.  One thing in favor of the WFS was it had the most tunefull bass but I thought the JK bass was both lower and better.  This however is the Tranquility's achilles heel - the bass is a little one note and flabby which on bass heavy material was noticeable.

The track that we locked onto that really showed the differences was Duffy Rockferry - the first track Rockferry - which has the reputation of being hard to reproduce properly due to her Welch wavering voice.  Through the Tranquility - sublime.  Its mid-range loves this type of stuff.  We tried it both via Itunes and Audirvana - Audirvana was quite noticeably better and via that the Tranquility really was awesome.  We tried the JK both direct and via the Truth.  Through the Truth it was a bit thin and un-involving - direct to the amp was a lot better - greater detail, imaging - all sorts of stuff was better.   But the mid-range was not as magical as the Tranquility - still very nice though - but a bit dry - but Gary did not mind that.  At $700.00 with no pre amp required incredible value.  Afraid the WFS was not in the hunt - it made Duffy's voice sound glarey, cold and sibilancy - most definitely not what you would want to listen to after the other DAC's.

On the basis of this comparison I must say don't even bother with the WFS - the JK is better and cheaper.  The Tranquility SE is clearly better (and it should be at three times the price) but like Gary it may not be to your taste.

Thanks
Bill
Logged
sonic
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 396



View Profile
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2011, 07:30:42 AM »

Hi Guys

A guy (Gary) has just left with the JK Saber and will do a write up comparing it to his Audio GD Ref 5 on SNA.  But we did a bit of a listening session for a few hours between the JK, WFS DAC 2 and Tranquility SE.  My PDX is having a bit of work done on it right now so could not be included.

Ok we confirmed the order of the DAC's as (worse to best) WFS, JK Saber and Tranquility SE.  But Gary preferred the JK to the Tranquility even though he thought the Tranquility was the better DAC, as I did.  The reason was, as everyone who has heard the Tranquility SE has noted, it has a very beguiling, liquid, fluid and mercury like mid-range that was recognized as better than the other DAC's, but was not to his taste - evidently the musical thing which the Tranquility definitely does is not his preference.

Gary was surprised with the WFS - glare in the upper mid-range lower treble with some sibilance issues and quite cold.  This was because many people on the internet were saying how good it was - but really in this comparison it was not up to the other DAC's - in fact after a while it became un-listenable because you easily locked onto its deficiencies after listening to the DAC's.  One thing in favor of the WFS was it had the most tunefull bass but I thought the JK bass was both lower and better.  This however is the Tranquility's achilles heel - the bass is a little one note and flabby which on bass heavy material was noticeable.

The track that we locked onto that really showed the differences was Duffy Rockferry - the first track Rockferry - which has the reputation of being hard to reproduce properly due to her Welch wavering voice.  Through the Tranquility - sublime.  Its mid-range loves this type of stuff.  We tried it both via Itunes and Audirvana - Audirvana was quite noticeably better and via that the Tranquility really was awesome.  We tried the JK both direct and via the Truth.  Through the Truth it was a bit thin and un-involving - direct to the amp was a lot better - greater detail, imaging - all sorts of stuff was better.   But the mid-range was not as magical as the Tranquility - still very nice though - but a bit dry - but Gary did not mind that.  At $700.00 with no pre amp required incredible value.  Afraid the WFS was not in the hunt - it made Duffy's voice sound glarey, cold and sibilancy - most definitely not what you would want to listen to after the other DAC's.

On the basis of this comparison I must say don't even bother with the WFS - the JK is better and cheaper.  The Tranquility SE is clearly better (and it should be at three times the price) but like Gary it may not be to your taste.

Thanks
Bill
Bill, let me bring up something that hasn't been mentioned here.  Did you know that in a typical listening room, the sound you hear can change just by moving or turning your head slightly?  It's true.  You don't even have to switch components to hear the difference.  Try it if you don't believe me.  It's called room mode.  The way to minimize or eliminate this discrepancy is to switch between components instantly (A/B switcher) while playing the source time synced which also helps to compensate our short aural memory span.
Logged
steve f
Guest
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2011, 10:10:15 PM »

I can hear all kinds of audiophile descriptive effects if I want to hear them.  Or maybe there's a full moon, and too much to drink.  Seriously, unless you set up objective comparisons, you aren't really sure what is going on. Too many variables do cloud judgment, but hey, this is just a hobby.  If you buy some piece of equipment, and you like it, good for you. If you understand the science involved, even better.

BTW Peter Aczel is a well spoken reviewer and respected by the professional community. You can and should read him online.

Steve
Logged
bhobba
Newbie
*
Posts: 44


View Profile Email
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2011, 01:04:08 AM »

I can hear all kinds of audiophile descriptive effects if I want to hear them.  Or maybe there's a full moon, and too much to drink.  Seriously, unless you set up objective comparisons, you aren't really sure what is going on. Too many variables do cloud judgment, but hey, this is just a hobby.  If you buy some piece of equipment, and you like it, good for you. If you understand the science involved, even better. BTW Peter Aczel is a well spoken reviewer and respected by the professional community. You can and should read him online.

Sure - which is why I usually have a number of people at my comparisons and to eliminate the head movement issue they change position during the audition. Having an honors degree in applied math including a significant amount of mathematical statistics the science of that is no mystery.  Nothing against Peter Aczel - just don't agree with his view all amps and DAC's sound the same as proved by DBT's.  Having attended a couple of those myself, and knowing others that have such as the guys at Db Audio Labs who do it all the time, I know significant audible differences exist.

Again however I am taken back to the position SNA takes - if you believe all amps and DAC's basically sound the same why even bother participating in discussions about audible differences?

Thanks
Bill
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 01:05:58 AM by bhobba » Logged
Ed Schilling
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1320


View Profile Email
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2011, 06:56:55 AM »

Well, I can't stand it anymore. Since we all know I am a simpleton, I'll try and make this simple.

It is simply silly to think two different amps, DACs, etc. sound the same. It is impossible on so many levels. Here are some things to consider.....harmonic distortion both even an odd, TIM, slew rate, freq. response, dynamic range, noise levels and so on would have to be identical for two different amps to sound the same.

As for a DAC, well, I reckon if they measure exactly the same in every known measurement they might sound the same. What are the chance that happens. Hell, even if the same chip is used the implementation of it would maybe cause big differences in sound. Then considering there are things we probably hear that we have not figured out how to measure.....................

The last thing is, Jesus Christ, how many of us have not heard audible differences every single time we change anything? See how simple it is to reason out? And there are many more reasons but those were so simple to come up with.


So there you go, a simpletons', simple opinion. And I'm sticking with it Smiley

Ed
ps....this is so simple to figure out I wanted to see how simply I could explain it and how many times I could use the word "simple" to do it. Smiley

Logged
bhobba
Newbie
*
Posts: 44


View Profile Email
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2011, 07:17:22 AM »

It is simply silly to think two different amps, DACs, etc. sound the same. It is impossible on so many levels. Here are some things to consider.....harmonic distortion both even an odd, TIM, slew rate, freq. response, dynamic range, noise levels and so on would have to be identical for two different amps to sound the same.

Abso-friggen-lutely.  And in fact the DBT's the nay-sayers claim disprove it in fact do the opposite whenever done with people that have a modicum of experience.

Thanks
Bill
Logged
sonic
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 396



View Profile
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2011, 09:14:37 AM »

Sure - which is why I usually have a number of people at my comparisons and to eliminate the head movement issue they change position during the audition.
Do you know what "slight" means in numbers when talking about head movement?  It can even be 1/4 inch or couple degrees.  People do this naturally without even being aware.  Unless the listeners you are referring to used some sort of harness, it's impossible to remain still like a machine (which we are not).

Quote
just don't agree with his view all amps and DAC's sound the same as proved by DBT's.
Is this because you have opposing objective data extracted through same process?

Quote
Having attended a couple of those myself, and knowing others that have such as the guys at Db Audio Labs who do it all the time, I know significant audible differences exist.
I asked about the ones you attended in regards to volume level matching but your answer wasn't clear so I'll ask again, how closely was the volume matched?  Also, was it time synced so that the switching can be done instantaneously to avoid human aural memory fade?

Quote
if you believe all amps and DAC's basically sound the same
Where did you come up with such idea?
Logged
sonic
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 396



View Profile
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2011, 09:29:49 AM »

It is simply silly to think two different amps, DACs, etc. sound the same.
Agree.  I personally haven't said that.

Quote
Here are some things to consider.....harmonic distortion both even an odd, TIM, slew rate, freq. response, dynamic range, noise levels and so on would have to be identical for two different amps to sound the same.
Good points.

Quote
As for a DAC, well, I reckon if they measure exactly the same in every known measurement they might sound the same. What are the chance that happens. Hell, even if the same chip is used the implementation of it would maybe cause big differences in sound.
Just about every components (i.e. DAC) measures different but many of the differences are well beyond the perceivable capacity of human hearing.  Today's DAC designs are to the point where the measured differences are smaller than it was 20 years ago. For example, variance in frequency response less than 0.5 db at the highest octave is not perceivable to us.  If it's in mid range, that changes depending on the volume level (ref. Fletcher Munson graph).  Another example, jitter level, again, DACs measure different but they are all well within perceivable capacity of human hearing.  I'll mention again, there are exceptions such as DACs with tube buffer and SET amp.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 09:32:54 AM by sonic » Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!