The Hornshoppe Forum

General Category => The Great Horned Heil, AKA "Time Vampires" => Topic started by: vrod on August 19, 2016, 01:46:20 PM



Title: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: vrod on August 19, 2016, 01:46:20 PM
They finally arrived: I went to Home Depot and bought Duct Seal Putty and I spent a considerable amount of time damping the basket of each speaker. I started at the apex of the basket  where it inserts into the magnet structure. There is a crevice there and a moderate amount of putty was placed, next, I applied putty to the outside AND inside of the basket's spokes and discarded the cheap rubber seal that came with the speaker. The top of the basket, where the seal was to be placed, is now occupied by putty. This makes a much better seal, reduces ringing and I finished by soldering the speakers. The results? Either Fostex has improved this speaker or damping the basket has an ENORMOUS impact on the sound. Out of the box these new speakers are better after two hours of listening than my old ones. There is less glare, better localization of instruments and the bass response is much better and all of this is only going to get better. Ringing is the Achilles heel of this(and I presume any) speaker. Also the better seal has improved the bass and coherence of the 126en. Most of the sophisticated members of this forum probably already know all the above. I thought some of the newbies(like me) might be interested in this entry.  


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 18, 2017, 09:24:56 PM
I did the same mod since i blew out one side and had to replace the 126.The one i used putty on is not even broke in and already sounds cleaner then the one from Ed.I'm sure Ed knows about this mod but for some reason he uses that black crap which is impossible to work with.I'm glad i didn't get that goop from him and did a little investigation online.It didn't take long to apply the putty and sonic result was amazing!!!!I'm not up for replacing the other 126 right now but will do so in the future.Many mods on line for the fostex but this one has great benefits.I'm going to remove dust cap next off blown speaker and try the mylar next.Don't know if i have the guts to put a razor blade on a working one.


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: Henry on February 19, 2017, 12:46:52 AM
Hello, coolhand,  I've done the dust cap trick a few times.  My advice is to leave it as stock.  I didn't ruin any drivers, but I didn't perceive an improvement.  I bought wooden phase plugs and sold them.  Just my two cents. 

If you decide to do it, let us know how it worked.

Take care, Henry


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 19, 2017, 06:20:12 AM
Great advice-i will leave it stock!!!!


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 19, 2017, 06:43:07 AM
I have decided to pull old 126 and apply the putty to it.It really makes a positive improvement and not that hard to do.Still love Ed's horns and will keep them playing forever!!!!!


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: Henry on February 19, 2017, 10:18:22 AM
coolhand, please understand I didn't want to quell your interest in trying different things.  I'm only conveying my experience.  We all have different systems and ears, so I should have made a disclaimer.  If it makes you happy, that's all that matters.

The cool thing is this is inexpensive.   :)


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 19, 2017, 11:42:02 AM
Thx again for your input but i decided against it-the horns just sound so good as is.But Greenvalve site got me intriged in Mylar tweek-I'm over it for now.... mike


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: Steve F on February 19, 2017, 03:00:46 PM
Hi guys,
I just want to add my 1.5 cents to this discussion. I mentioned deadening baskets on another forum. One that Ed and I are no longer welcome on, btw.  Anyway, Mr VanAlstine a noted manufacturer recommended against plumbers putty, as it can adversely affect speakers. He said modeling clay is the way to go.
Steve


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: Henry on February 19, 2017, 04:26:30 PM
Hey Steve, Mr. Frank is making an Ultravalve for me.  I just need another amp or two.  ???


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: Steve F on February 19, 2017, 06:03:35 PM
Everybody needs more stuff. At least I think so.


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 19, 2017, 07:06:10 PM
Actually i used duct seal and don't see how it could have adverse affect on 126-unless sounding well damped and controlling the speaker better is bad-don't knock it til you've tried it!!!


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: Henry on February 19, 2017, 09:40:41 PM
coolhand...It's a good thing to be well damped.  Now go to Walmart and buy bb's to fill the void space.  Just the lower portion. 

http://thehornshoppeforum.com/index.php?topic=145.0 (http://thehornshoppeforum.com/index.php?topic=145.0)


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 20, 2017, 06:17:09 AM
Thx but no thx-I'm really happy with sound of horned heils atm-later who knows.....Mike


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 20, 2017, 04:27:12 PM
My horns are bolted into 1 inch thick wood-about 2x2 ft.I have cats and they have an urge to jump on anything so it was a concern.


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 25, 2017, 11:18:28 AM
Tried a nice mod for 126 en.After doing left side 126 with duct seal on basket above and below i noticed about 2-3 db louder from mod side.At 1st i thought it was break in since it was a new driver.But also noticed improvements though entire speaker.Crystal highs-midband smoother and more articulate and bass also improved.So today i modded the good driver.Now the levels matched and the horns sounded better than i had ever heard them.A major improvement-really amazing.That was $2 worth of duct seal from home depot and maybe 45 min to apply.It is a little stiffer then putty but you can work it pretty easily.I put about 3/8 inch rolled out above magnet and just covering a little of the spokes.Then i applied a smaller layer to top of basket.Finally bout 1/2 inch to cover back of magnet.Only added to magnet on right speaker and really couldn't hear much difference from left where i didn't do magnet.So there it is-flame away-but i love it so who really cares what anyone thinks.


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 25, 2017, 11:29:26 AM
Next time i get froggy i will try greenvalve's mylar mod to dust cap.Already tried on blown speaker-i used a blow dryer instead of flame as he did.Tried with flame and cooked the mylar.Too bad i can't listen to my work since speaker is blown.But now i'm confident i can do it easily.Not too pretty so i'm looking for a paint i can use but plenty of time to figure that out.In the meantime my heiled horns sound amazing!!!!!!


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 25, 2017, 11:37:11 AM
If you want to see what duct seal looks like applied go to planet10 website-that's not where i 1st read about using it but he does have a good pic of 126 with duct seal applied.He has many other mods he applys to this speaker but the duct seal and damping of ringing basket were of importance to me.I would have to hear the effects of EnABLE before i judge it.Sounds like a winner and gets great reviews but i believe duct seal application is most important.


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: Steve F on February 25, 2017, 11:24:35 PM
I've compared enabled drivers to normal drivers, at least for Fostex 126en units, mounted in the Horns. Here's what I found. If both drivers are new, the enabled driver sounds a bit smoother. Once the drivers have a lot of hours on them, there doesn't seem to be any differences. I'm guessing that the untreated cone flexing breaks down the cone's fiber surface a bit, and then has a equal response to the treated cone. This took a couple of months.


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 26, 2017, 04:57:40 AM
I've heard same about enable.Greenvalve's mylar tape on removed dust cap will be next for me.Still can't believe huge improvement by using duct seal.I'll try mylar mod next!!!


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: Henry on February 26, 2017, 09:33:09 AM
Hey cool hand, the upper frequencies may be better, but if I understand, you are running them as two-ways.  Just a thought.  Something to contemplate. 

Again, have a good time.  Let us know what happens.


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: Steve F on February 26, 2017, 09:33:21 PM
Good point Henry.
I wonder if the shape of the dust cap is more important than the material anyway. There is a lot of room for experimentation, and benefits if any, would benefit a full range driver, and not the Heils.


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 27, 2017, 07:49:45 AM
Yes the heils are fine as is but the fostex driver responds quite well to some simple mods-really amazing improvements can be made with little cost and a small ammount of time invested!!!!


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: Ed Schilling on February 27, 2017, 08:10:54 AM
Steve is correct. The dust cap (on the 126En) is/was designed to extend the HF. Modifying it will result in a decrease in HF. Adding gobs of putty to the magnet can not possibly damp anything audible. The only place it can do any good, if it actually does is on the basket arms and junction of the basket and magnet, which is where I put the stuff.

I have been butchering and modifying drivers for decades. The apparent increase in "performance" is most likely due to the 126En being made to a higher tolerance and better QC. having measured 100's of them I no longer do it because they all now measure within the tolerance I used to match them to!

That said, I have no problem at all with folks doing anything they want if they like the results but one should remember that the "placebo effect" is alive and kicking hard in the high end audio world :)
Ed
ps.....I had drivers done by the man that invented the "little dots" (Mr. Bud Purvine, a really nice fellow, btw) and did a fair number my self. The results? See the last sentence above. If a fellow pays a lot for a "modification" then it stands to reason they will think an improvement is made even though the "improvement" can not be measured when compared to a stock driver or that no change can be measured after the driver is modified.



Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 27, 2017, 08:12:27 AM
I would like to add that when i modded 126 i was listening to results sans heil.Left 1st and i heard major improvements.So i applied duct seal to right.I could definitely live with horns by themselves.But after adding heils the full magic of Ed's speakers was realized!If you decline to add duct seal it's your loss-i won't try to convince you anymore.More time to listen!!!!!


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 27, 2017, 08:22:13 AM
Ed i appreciate your input but i assure you no placebo effect was taking place.Please try it yourself-like i said it takes $2 worth of ductseal and maybe 20-30 min to apply.Then tell me it's all in my head!I have 50+ years listening to stereo-mostly vinyl and years ago used to mix for several local bands.Ears of gold i was always told-so believe it or not for the small amount of time invested just try it and let me know if the placebo effect is in action.trust me it is not.....Mike


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 27, 2017, 08:39:55 AM
And i have not done mylar mod and probably will not-right now Fostex 126 in my estimation could not sound any better.Greenvalve says he likes mylar mod over heiled driver-i don't believe that!And as far as Enable mods and such they would not add anything but the placebo effect.Not worth the time or money to even try!!!!My heiled horns and sub sound as close to perfection as i have ever heard-i'm a happy camper and just giving my honest opinion.Try it or not-not really concerned-done with it!!!!!!


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: Ed Schilling on February 27, 2017, 02:27:49 PM
CH, did you do both? Please understand  that I respect your opinion but the improvement could be due to other things than the damping. As I said the 126En has gotten better with regard to QC but also depending on how much duct seal is on them the volume of the chamber may have changed enough to make a difference.

I certainly would not want to discourage you or anyone from doing anything that "helps"!

You only replaced one driver, correct? I think you should replace the other one as well. It would also be good if you installed it un-modded to compare and then damp it. This is not a "trick" but you would be giving valuable info to those reading the thread.

This is the primary reason this forum exists.....to question......give opinion...................and have fun!
Ed
ps.....got your call but must have just left the house!


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 27, 2017, 03:33:52 PM
I replaced left fostek and applied duct seal to it.After i heard the superior sound i applied duct seal to original.Without seal on right channel the difference was so great i thought i was out of phase.I was in phase but adding the damping was causing this.So i applied to right and magic.And perfectly matched and sounding beautiful.Say  whatever you want it is real and takes maybe an hr to accomplish this.At least try it on one speaker for christ sake!!!!!


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 27, 2017, 03:42:48 PM
Also the right speaker had your personal treatment which added virtually nothing as far as damping.No need to use on spokes of driver-the duckseal takes care of that also.People once thought the world was flat-i think now it has been proven it is in fact round.....Mike


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 27, 2017, 03:58:30 PM
By the way,Ed,you have no respect for my opinion if you don't try ductseal on one speaker.If you don't hear exactly what i'm hearing-i will personally visit you and kiss your hillbilly ass!!!!Since you don't answer your phone i had to try a more drastic approach....Mike


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: Ed Schilling on February 27, 2017, 04:28:17 PM
Mike, LOL. I can't answer the phone if I'm not here. :)  I never said I did not respect your opinion! The purpose of the forum is to exchange ideas and thoughts. You are doing it.

 I am so busy building The Truth and so far behind I literally (not figuratively) have zero time to experiment.

Keep us posted.
Ed


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 27, 2017, 05:13:03 PM
It's not an experiment-it's a proven fact and when you get a 30 min break you really should try it-you won't be sorry.....Mike


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 27, 2017, 05:39:06 PM
Ed-"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH"


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: Capt. Z on February 28, 2017, 01:23:43 AM
With that mass of puddy on the magnet, the chamber of the driver has been reduced.

And of course Audio is made audible by vibrations. Damping anything in Audio will change the things how they vibrate and sound.

Wonder if that is the difference you are hearing.


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 28, 2017, 08:05:16 AM
It's not really a mass of "puddy" but a well applied ammount of ductseal.Sonic benefits are nothing short of amazing.Or maybe it's the placebo effect Ed mentioned.Sorry Ed it is real and sounds wonderfull!Nothing to lose by trying it-$2 of ductseal at Home Depot in electrical section.And half hr to apply to one Fostex.It can be easily removed with minimal effort but once you hear the benefits-you won't even think of removing.You will just apply to both speakers and enjoy!!!!!!


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: Steve F on February 28, 2017, 09:56:06 AM
Has anyone measured the resonant frequency of the basket?


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: coolhand28 on February 28, 2017, 10:31:47 AM
It's a cast basket and has high resonant frequency-thats why it is necessary to damp the basket.Just tap on a new fostex driver with a pencil and you can hear it.You have to deaden this to hear how good fostex can sound.Only can expect so much from a full range driver in this price range.But add ductseal and you will hear how good the 126 really is!!!!!!


Title: Re: Preparing the Fostex 126en
Post by: Ed Schilling on March 26, 2017, 12:24:31 AM
Actually, it's stamped steel, not cast. This is why the "spokes" need to be damped and the junction between the magnet and basket as well.
Ed