The Hornshoppe Forum

General Category => Technical discussion => Topic started by: Ed Schilling on May 26, 2013, 10:16:24 PM



Title: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on May 26, 2013, 10:16:24 PM
Ok peeps, it's time. After minutes of design calculations and 2 prototypes, it's done and good enough to release. Guys, you are going to be dumbfounded at how good this thing is. I do not mean "good for a speaker in a bucket", I mean good compared to very expensive commercial offerings. It is as good as my Cube, maybe better. No, not maybe, it is and it pains me to admit it. No, it does not look as good and it is not small and easily hidden but it makes up for all that in performance and the fact it costs practically nothing and anyone can build it easily.

So here goes....you will need....
1. http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/peerless-sls-830667-8-paper-cone-woofer/
2. a subwoofer amp or one that can be used like one, I prefer the Crown XLS series...any of them. They only have low level inputs so you should make a cable to convert from speaker level to low level.....a 600 ohm resistor in line with the center pin on an RCA is perfect for the Crown amps. The other end should be connected to the main amp along with the speaker wires. The main amp will not notice the 600 ohm load. I use a 1/2 watt 600 ohm resistor, an RCA plug and 18gauge speaker wire to make the cable. The Crown amp is very nice and the xover is fantastic, the power of them is insane. I run 2 subs in parallel and the amp in bridged mono. I don't care for "stereo subs" but the Crown will do that as well.
3. some feet, like these.....
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=260-774
4. some silicone sealant
5. some wire
6. 4-8 three inch deck screws
7. a 5 gallon bucket and lid
8. one bag of fast setting concrete.
9. four, 2 inch drywall or wood screws for the feet
10. maybe some small sheet metal or wood screws for the driver.....I did not screw it down on mine but it would not hurt.

Pay attention here as this is extremely difficult and painstakingly hard to do. Not.

1. turn bucket upside down and use driver to determine the size mounting hole. Cut hole in bottom of bucket. Test the fit. Get another bucket if you screw it up.
2. using 2 inch screws, screw the feet onto the lid and pound the lid on the bucket making sure it is all the way on, I used a rubber mallet. The cement should anchor the screws and feet
3. between the lid and the the projection on the bucket drive the 3 inch deck screws in. They are the anchors for the cement. I used 4, use as many as you like.
4. drill a small hole above the projection on the bucket for the wire to exit.
5. mix the concrete in another container....we don't want it on the inside walls, be neat here! Mix it thoroughly and not too runny!
6. with bucket upside down, carefully pour/scoop cement through the driver hole and fill it just above the projection on the bucket making sure it covers the anchor screws.
7. Let it dry at least 24 hours, although it will be hard in an hour, don't be tempted 2 days is even better, probably The concrete must be COMPLETELY DRY, not just hard!Almost done!
8. solder wire to driver, pass through hole and silicone the driver in place, use screws if you want but the silicone will hold it
9. seal the wire hole with silicone
10. hook her up and be amazed


I will be happy to supply the driver, amp, feet and screws to anyone that would like to just have a "kit" rather than hunt the stuff down. The "kit" will have everything except the bucket and concrete. No price yet but I guess 250 bucks including shipping should do it.

Of course any plate amp you might have will/should be fine.....no substitutions on the driver!!!!

If you order a driver from Madisound, please do ask for Brian and let him know it's for the FFRSMark 4:20i

Please pass this thread around! This thing is too good to be suppressed!

The F'n Fantastic Redneck Subwoofer Mark 4:20 i. (King James or Cheech and Chong,either is good) is not a joke!
Ed







Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: johnnycopy on May 26, 2013, 11:17:55 PM
Could you run it in a car trunk, Ed?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on May 26, 2013, 11:37:46 PM
It's way too good for that! Make no mistake, the only joke here is the name. Car boomers are cheap anyway.
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on May 27, 2013, 07:57:04 PM
It would make a nice car boomer for sure.  I heard it again today with the concrete and little tweaks.  I enjoyed it a lot. :)  Ed's F5 clone, the Naked Truth and the FFRSMark 4:20 provided some seriously dynamic, detailed and clean sounding tunes.  Some folks may say the system was down right moozical.  :D

The F5 is actually growing on me and has nary a toob in it. :o  It images very well having a wide stage and depth.  I like its tonal balance with the Heiled Horns and sub.  I really do think it has improved over the past several weeks, so maybe its parts are happier and more well-adjusted now. :D  sonic should like that one...  :D  There's no wonder the diy people are being manic about it. 

Some passages of "Dark Side of the Moon" were absolutely startling; I don't remember the Horns sounding any more dynamic than they were today.  At times, they reminded me of the Model 3 stacks like homey rocks.  Carole King's mediocre recordings had new life and her voice had improved dimension and more layers than what I recall.  It all sounded very sharp and clean, but possessing finesse and being more forgiving in the highs than other solid state amps I've heard.

The sub, the F5 and the Naked Truth had synergy and sounded right.  I was surprised the sub sounded so authoritative with my modest little TBI sub amp (200 watts).  A subwoofer amp with more power and authority would be fun I'm sure, but a luxury.  As it is, there is more output than necessary for a mouth-breathing, lease-breaking fool to be content.  ;D  If you want inexpensive, high quality bass, the Peerless sub in a bucket works.   :)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Magidrakee on May 29, 2013, 06:36:30 AM
Just a few questions for you guys before I start this project.

I already own 2 subs. One is a SVS-PB12NSD. It is huge, excellent for movies LFE from 18hz to 30hz. However, it does not sound too good with music. I suspect, and please correct me if I'm wrong, it may be because it is front ported. Maybe the driver is too big, or too "slow", for 30hz to 50hz stuff.

Just for fun, I connected my small Paradigm PDR-8 (normally used in my office room), back ported, and it sounds a lot better for music. I feel that the fact it is back-ported makes if more coherent with the Horns, but it could be the driver size, I don't know.

Now... would the FFRSMark 4:20i sound better? For sure I trust Ed's sound mastermind, but any kind of support like "a sealed sub is absolutely needed for music", would be appreciated.

Thanks



Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: sonic on May 29, 2013, 09:14:28 AM
I suspect, and please correct me if I'm wrong, it may be because it is front ported. Maybe the driver is too big, or too "slow", for 30hz to 50hz stuff.
There can be problems with too small of a subwoofer driver.  What you have won't cause a problem with being too big or too slow.

Quote
Just for fun, I connected my small Paradigm PDR-8 (normally used in my office room), back ported, and it sounds a lot better for music. I feel that the fact it is back-ported makes if more coherent with the Horns, but it could be the driver size, I don't know.

Now... would the FFRSMark 4:20i sound better? For sure I trust Ed's sound mastermind, but any kind of support like "a sealed sub is absolutely needed for music", would be appreciated.
Setting up your sub can be tricky since it's very much location dependent.  Here are good sources.  http://www.avsforum.com/t/1004573/setting-up-your-subwoofer-101


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on May 29, 2013, 09:50:33 AM
Magidrakee, the larger the driver the less excursion and in theory less distortion. Smaller drivers require more excursion for a given output and low freq. The problem is that there are many more factors that determine what is "best". Placement is critical but that is why I always use an outboard amp. It allows you to have just a single wire to the sub and that allows you to put it where it should be not where there is power and it's convenient.

As to "fast and slow".....well, if one thinks a large high mass driver using a giant motor to overcome the high mass is a good idea it doesn't bother me at all. I've found that smaller drivers with moderate excursion are "better" for most people. I've built TL subs the size of a refrigerator and they were awesome. They also were "real subwoofers" and had little output above 80hz or so. They were seldom heard but often felt. not practical at all.

Most subs are used as "bass augmenters" and have output as high as a couple hundred hertz sometimes.

The FFRSMark 4:20 i. seems to be more of a "real sub". The xover in my room is at 40-50hz. It is seemless.

Near the end of "Sunshine of your love" there is a bass thump, not sure what it is but I bet most have never heard it. With flat response down to 30 you will both feel and hear it. Without a sub you will not with The Horns alone. It is just not there. While that may sound "bad", it's not really, they err on the side of omission. It was not there with my La Scalas without a sub either.

It's there with the FFRS Mark 4:20 i. Henry heard it, I felt it. My LF hearing is not near as good as my HF, I've always felt it as much as "heard it".

I've never heard a ported speaker I could live with, including subs.

This redneck, crazy idea is way better than it should be. Having 2 will lower distortion by reducing excursion needed for same output.

You will be shocked.
Ed



Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Magidrakee on May 30, 2013, 08:21:52 AM
Sonic: thanks for the link. It definitely deserves a bookmark. I already did the crawling stuff, but my sub is so big, and the front corners are taken by the horns, so it does not leave many options. I'm also still working on upper-corner bass traps. I think it will help a lot (big dip @ 50hz in my room according to the SPL meter). BTW, I love your new signature. ;)

Ed: Do you think very low excursion could however affect "resolution" (that would explain the minimum excursion needed for "good" bass?). Boy, I'm going to get smashed on this one... but I can take some shots for the sake of discussion :)

You make me very curious about the FFRS, and I never had a sealed sub, so I'm going to begin the hunt for parts here in Canada.

Cheers


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Mac on June 04, 2013, 05:50:26 PM
I spent some time listening to the FFRS. At first I was a bit put off by the bass because it sounded "live".  That isn't much of a criticism, proved ridiculous on the synthetic bass albums.  The best part is that the FFRS does nothing to the other frequencies. If it doesn't affect the vocals, and it's cheap, why not two? or four? Overkill is fun when it's cheap and doesn't have a downside .

mac

edit...Mac, I changed "proven" to "proved". I think that is what you meant.
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on June 05, 2013, 01:17:57 PM
I ordered me one of them "whoopers" today.  I couldn't stand it and had to have one.  No amp yet... I'm still thinking about that.  Once I hear it in my house I'll do something. Now I'm searching high and low for the perfect pickle bucket (no sheetrock-mud or paint bucket for this guy).;D

Speaking of "this guy", check out my new hero.  I've been fascinated lately by watching guys on tv throw axes (for you home boys, I'm not talking about "axing" questions).  ;)  Anyway, I happened upon this video review of a nice throwing ax on amazon, please check it out:
http://www.amazon.com/review/R3DAB8K43XX2BS/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R3DAB8K43XX2BS (http://www.amazon.com/review/R3DAB8K43XX2BS/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R3DAB8K43XX2BS)

I guess it's the cigarette that makes me smile the most.  Gotta love those hillbillies.  I'd hate to piss him off.  :o


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on June 09, 2013, 07:10:59 PM
Alright guys, here's my FFRS effort.  I have pictures because I like pictures.  ;D

I went to Lowe's Home Improvement store and picked out a nice gray pail and I paid another buck to get a food grade lid because it fit tightly and had a gasket.  Sort of a moot point, since I ran a bead of silicone around the lid/bucket interface inside the bucket.  But, let me start from the first...

1) I cut the woofer hole using a small jigsaw with a fine wood blade and it was really fast and easy, and left a clean cut.  I used the clear protective driver cover as a template for the circle by cutting it to size with scissors (you'll see what I mean if you get one).
2) I decided to use some old binding posts for connection terminals and drilled the holes for them.  I think Ed just ran a length of wire through a sealed hole, but I had these and wanted to be stupid.  ;)
3) I drilled three holes in the lid at 120 degrees spacing to attach three big rubber feet I had from another time long ago.
4) I pounded the lid onto the bucket with a rubber mallet and applied the silicone bead previously mentioned on the inside bucket/lid seam to ensure nothing would ever leak (overkill).
5) I drilled holes for and installed four 3" deck screws into the bucket sides just below the big reinforcement ring to anchor the quikrete.
6) I attached the feet through the previusly drilled lid holes.
7) I mixed and carefully added the quikrete through the driver hole and spread it in the bottom with my best big serving spoon used as a trowel.
8) I let that cure for a day and installed the binding posts in their previously drill holes.
9) After the quikrete hardened, I sealed it using some spray-on rubberized undercoat that I had for another project. (I could open a hardware store, it seems  ::)).  That's optional as there were no issues with loose pebbles, but I had it and...
10) I used some good ol' Woods extension cord for cabling from the binding posts and soldered those in and connected the driver.
11) I used silicone and screws to fasten the driver to the bucket.
12) I admire my FFRS while the glue cures.  ;D

Here are some photos...
(http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t593/henrysutton/Subwoofer/bucketsub003_zps5d5425ea.jpg)
(http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t593/henrysutton/Subwoofer/bucketsub002_zpsc02289e2.jpg)
(http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t593/henrysutton/Subwoofer/bucketsub001_zpsed80e932.jpg)

Here's a shot of the 3" screw through the side to anchor the quikrete:
(http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t593/henrysutton/Subwoofer/bucketsub005_zps3476c320.jpg)

Here's a shot of the feet.  With this lid, the feet appear short, but the lid has a 3/4" high lip that recesses the feet.  These feet are 1.125" tall:
(http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t593/henrysutton/Subwoofer/bucketsub006_zpsf516855b.jpg)

Binding posts... WARNING: don't let your child fall into this subwoofer:  :D
(http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t593/henrysutton/Subwoofer/bucketsub008_zps459b860b.jpg)
(http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t593/henrysutton/Subwoofer/bucketsub009_zps07caa676.jpg)

The quikrete I used (10 lb pail seemd about right):
(http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t593/henrysutton/Subwoofer/bucketsub010_zpsa7dd3aad.jpg)

The driver porn:
(http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t593/henrysutton/Subwoofer/snoop008_zpsbffbd731.jpg)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Magidrakee on June 11, 2013, 10:55:38 AM
Good job Henry. Could you check the pictures links? Can't see them here...


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on June 11, 2013, 01:56:11 PM
Good job Henry. Could you check the pictures links? Can't see them here...

Thanks Magidrakee.  :)

Jeez... it looks like good old google drive is screwing me.  I had trouble getting those photos linked (there was intermittent trouble getting the "copy url" function).  Now they've evidently moved or something.  I'll just move them to another host and try to repair it.   ::)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hopefully the photos are there to see now.  ;D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on June 11, 2013, 03:31:53 PM
I had a chance to listen to the FFRS and it's really good, no kidding.  It behaved much better than I expected since it was brand new.  Of course, I wasn't making it rattle with big time volume, but I did have it reaching for some impressive lows.

Compared to my twin TBI Magellan VI subs, it clearly was more efficient and made its presence known more than they did.  The TBI's virtue is they aren't noticeable and their quickness assists in them being easy to integrate at about any crossover point.

I haven't tried to throttle the FFRS back to the TBI levels to see how it disappeared.  To be honest, I was having too much fun with an old P-funk cd.  :D  Bootsy Collins is a monster bassist.  And some Mother's Finest thrown in for good measure (gotta love a drummer christened "BB Queen"  :)).

It's a house rocker and brings out the "stupid" in me.  I like it a lot now and I know it'll get better.  I can see another coming soon, it's so cheap and good, why not?  ;)

I was driving the TBI's and the FFRS with an evil class D amp (sorry Ed)... a Crown xls 2500.  It really makes any sub hooked to it sound well controlled and go deep.  It's noticeably better than the 200 watt TBI sub amp I have, it does stereo and it makes crazy power for not all that much money and weight.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Lee on June 11, 2013, 05:12:28 PM
Looks great, Henry. Could you explain how you connected it to the Crown amp? Does the Crown have speaker level inputs?  Thanks.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on June 11, 2013, 06:07:42 PM
Looks great, Henry. Could you explain how you connected it to the Crown amp? Does the Crown have speaker level inputs?  Thanks.

It does have a variety of line-level jacks, I use the RCA's.  I'm using Ed's trick... I think he called them "magic cables" that were supplied with the "Cube" subwoofer.  It's basically a cable that is hooked to the amp speaker binding posts on one end and RCA plugs on the other.  The signal is attenuated by using a resistor in the signal (+) line.  I had made a project box with binding posts on one side and RCA jacks on the other, connected by a resistor.  That allowed me to use IC's and speaker wire w/bananas from the amp and made it convenient for my situation back then. 

Unfortunately, the Crown likes lots of input voltage (1.4v to make full power), so it attenuated the signal a little too much using a 10k resistor.  I'm playing with lower resistor values as I now need to turn the amp almost all the way up to achieve enough bass.  But, it does make enough as is, but certainly isn't optimized. 

There are some inexpensive car stereo converters on amazon I'm considering that are signal adjustable via trim pots.  That may be a slick way to always have the proper signal level regardless of the amp I'm using... and it's cheap... and I don't have to make one.  ;D  They're called LOC (line out converters) and let folks tap trunk speakers wires for their add-on sub amps.

The other thing I need to address is the friggin' nasty blue led and interface screen lighting as it's made to show up in pro situations.  I can see some window tint film in my future.  :)

The Crown really does a nice job with low bass being class D and powerful... and only costs a little more than the 200w mono TBI amp I have (it's much better than the TBI IMO).  It just isn't quite plug and play and unobtrusive.

Also, the Crown has a good warranty and they have been kicked around by musicians for about three years now with good results.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on June 12, 2013, 11:31:05 AM
Henry, most class d amps can not take a common ground on the input! Check to see if the input rca grounds are connected on the crown. If they are not you may be killing it because the speaker output is almost certain to have a common ground unless you are using mono blocks!

1.4 V is low sens.! Normal is 2 to 2.5V, I think. Typical sources put out 2-4V with 2.5 being common, I think.

Anyway, do make sure the shields on the Crowns' left and right RCAs' are connected and if they are not..........

When are you coming? I'm still laid up and waiting on the damn cases I need!
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on June 12, 2013, 01:08:31 PM
Henry, most class d amps can not take a common ground on the input! Check to see if the input rca grounds are connected on the crown. If they are not you may be killing it...

No Ed, you're killing me!  :D

I checked and there is continuity on the RCA input shields on the Crown.

Also, all of my preamp outputs are common grounded (the Clarinet, the Chime DAC, the Grounded Grid and the Truth).  I have continuity between the left and right channel RCA jacks outside (-) connections.  So even if I used line level inputting, I'd have the same issue if common input grounds were a problem.  Also, also, I've fed class D amps with those before with no issues... I've never hear about that.    But I don't know that much either and appreciate the heads up.  :)

Are you thinking about the class D outputs?  I was careful to consider the Crown's speaker output grounding considerations, but unless I use it full-range to drive the Heil/Horns or connect it to another sub amp, I shouldn't have a problem, right?  And, this one should go into fault mode and save itself... I hope.  It has a good warranty.  :D

I could have those input voltage numbers wrong.  It seems to be a common theme among home users that a signal boost is needed to make it work best.  Some guys are using this to drive their main speakers and their preamps aren't delivering enough signal.  My experience with the magic cables is consistent from what I've read.

You're already picking on my class D monster.  Stop it.  ;D ;D ;D  

I'm going to try to come down maybe Friday or Saturday and make you a subwoofer class D amp convert... I'll let you know for sure.  We can try FFRS in tandem.  ;)

PS- You didn't even tell how kick-ass my bucket sub looked.  Man, that hurts.  ;D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on June 12, 2013, 01:32:49 PM
Crap, Yes, I was thinking of the outputs! I must be still dazed.
Either day is cool. I'm just waiting and hoping I'll heal. My mobility is severely limited.

"Sensitivity (@ 4 ohms): 1.4 Vrms".....I wonder if it is 2.8 at 8 ohms? I've never noticed an input sens. based on speaker load.
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on June 12, 2013, 02:27:07 PM
Thanks Ed, I was hoping it was you and not me this time.  Usually, it's me doing something weird, like buying an amp I can't stand to look at.  Or a bright lime green plastic stereo record player to restore. Try to find an idler wheel for a late '60's RCA portable sometime, insane money.  Costs more than the record player. ;D

I look forward to seeing your guys again, and that big lizard, of course.  It's finally summertime, eh?  Makes me want to feel the heat in the pink room.

Hey, I think I may have some F5 parts at the post office... maybe.  The guy waited almost a month to ship, btw. I have a few little projects to finish before I start that one.  I'll probably be seeing you much more during that process.  I should probably be thinking about gratuity gifts for you and Donald.  Maybe he'd like a lime green record player? :D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on June 15, 2013, 09:47:45 PM
That Crown amp is a damn good sub amp!
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on June 16, 2013, 09:07:50 AM
That Crown amp is a damn good sub amp!
Ed

Thanks again Ed for the good visit and all the help you gave me... I knew you would and counted on it. ;)  I hope that leg continues to improve, it's still ugly after all this time.  You really took some abuse that day.  :o

On to the good stuff...  ;)  I've never heard his system sound better (except for the times Jim Dowdy's big lotto-winner amp is there).  That F5 clone seems to perfectly "fit" the chain with the Heil/Horns at the end.  :)

We had some seriously good listening with two bucket subs in place, with or without the Crown amp powering them.  The lesser powered TBI amp was no slouch and provided a dynamic show as well, but the loudest (very loud) passages showed differences.

The FFRS Mark4:20i is a no-brainer if you're subless... and it may make you rethink your current sub if you aren't.  Maybe the acoustic suspension design makes these things sound fast and "right".  And two are better than one.  Four may be insane with even lower distortion resulting from less excursion needed to provide the same output.

Guaranteed to generate zero remorse for spending the little cash and effort needed to build one.  Hell, have your kids do a collage on the outside (upside down, before installing the driver of course), if the look of a plastique bucket offends you.  Or have that family seamstress craft a "snuggie" for it.  Dress it like a really bad Peter Gabriel costume from the '70's.  Even "enable" it if patterned dots do it for you... an instant summer art project.  Just be careful, these are like eating potato chips.

BTW, Ed actually has a working 2-channel system set up in his pink room complete with a sub and three excellent sources (vinyl, cd, and computer).  Somebody... release the doves. ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: 2wo on June 17, 2013, 09:03:03 PM
I see you decided to go with the upscale "plastique" bucket  ;D...John


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on June 18, 2013, 06:22:40 PM
I see you decided to go with the upscale "plastique" bucket  ;D...John

I'm glad you noticed!  I'm looking at doing one more very soon.  One thing I noticed last night was the FFRS seems to articulate bass notes very well, it makes for a coherent presentation.  I've listened to a reference cut for years and for the first time, I noticed what was once rendered as a distant bass "thud", now has enough definition to clearly represent a large, loose-headed drum being struck with a soft-headed stick or mallet.  Suddenly, it made sense and I knew how the sound was made.  Jeez, that only took about 9 years.  :D

That really surprised me in a good way.  :)

I think the "up-firing", acoustic suspension and paper cone all work together to make this much better than I would have ever guessed.  ;)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on June 19, 2013, 07:47:47 PM
Well, I ordered the Crown XLS 1000. I could not swing the 2500 that Henry has but I think this one will be just fine and still overkill! We'll see. Should be here Mon.
Ed
https://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=245-500


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on June 20, 2013, 05:53:00 AM
New toy!!! Always a good time.  ;D

Maybe you can figure out a better way to introduce a signal to it.  I'm using only 680R on the speaker level ---> line level input... and it still seems a little weak with my low power tube amps. ???  It'll be interesting to see if yours behaves the same as mine in that respect.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Capt. Z on June 20, 2013, 08:21:34 AM
Nice amp Ed. Great to see that it even has a cross over build in, so it can be used just like a sub-woofer amp. Only thing missing is an automatic on/off mode, but then you probably can leave it on 24/7.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on June 20, 2013, 10:15:20 AM
Hey guys, y'all know me....I am "cheap but effective". I would not have ordered an amp if I had one! Henry has been letting me use his TBI. On Mon., if the XLS 1000 is as good as Henry's 2500 I'll change recommended amp with instructions on how to use it with a high level connection. Henry is using a 680 ohm resistor and thinks it could be lower but that is already pretty low!

Henry, are you gain controls wide open with 10K or 1K to get any output? What about the 680?

Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on June 20, 2013, 11:34:46 AM
Hey Ed,
At 9,800 ohms I was a few clicks away from wide open on the Crown mated to the 300b amp.  With 680 ohms, I'm at 2:00 for FFRS and 3:30 for the tbi subs using that same tube amp.  The Carina seems to yield the same.  So, I have some headroom, but I'd feel better about it if the settings were <12:00 (for some reason).  With the F5 making a joyous noise in the pink mosque, we had the two FFRS's running at about 11:00.  So it appears the amp's wattage has an affect on where to set the volume pots.

I'm not even sure if those aforementioned times are AM or PM, EST or EDT.  I'm so confused. :D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on June 20, 2013, 05:26:35 PM
...if the XLS 1000 is as good as Henry's 2500...

I predict the xls2500 is about 150% better than the xls1000.  Model numbers matter.  ;)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Steve F on June 21, 2013, 07:51:25 AM
Ed, Hurry up and report on that Crown amp. Since model numbers matter  ;) I want to find out if I can buy the 1500 and be one up on you but trailing Henry. The sale ends in a couple of days, if the smallest amp works well, that will be a killer deal.

Steve


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on June 21, 2013, 08:50:23 AM
Hey Steve, look on amazon when you get ready to buy.  For instance, the xls1500 is there for $345 (free ship) instead of $358.  However, the xls1000 is cheapest at Parts Express at the moment.  I saved about $40 on amazon when I bought, but I see they have crept up in price since then.  It really depends on the timing.

I do like PE for their good service regardless.  ;)



Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on June 22, 2013, 06:55:18 AM
The amp will be here Mon. I'll get it hooked up and report what I find that night. I really have no doubt it will kick butt. Working on "something". Will post image later.
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on June 22, 2013, 02:02:21 PM
Y'all knew it was just a matter of time, right?
Ed
(http://www.thehornshoppe.com/camoffrs.jpg)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Magidrakee on June 22, 2013, 05:18:31 PM
Haha! Awesome work Ed :D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on June 22, 2013, 05:20:31 PM
Nice Ed, the "Real Tree" limited edition.  :D

I finished another one today as well, just another gray one.  Ho hum, no pretty trees.  These work perfectly with the Horns... hard to beat, period.

The TBI subs may go a tad deeper, but these excel in articulation, sound natural and integrate perfectly, making for looong listening sessions. I'm now a believer and I didn't have high hopes for the FFRS when I first heard it (before it had loosened up a bit). They're as good as they are cheap... and they're extremely cheap. ;D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on June 22, 2013, 05:40:13 PM
Henry, didn't you and I hear it together for the very first time? I was not thrilled either, but it sure did not take long for that to change! That driver had sat in my back room for maybe 2 years.

Every Horn owner w/o a sub needs one or two of these.

After messing around with placement I can say for sure it needs to be against a wall. With 2, maybe not.
Ed




Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on June 23, 2013, 06:17:47 AM
I'd say make one even if you have an existing sub because the cost is well under $100 and the FFRS is that good.  It will be a different flavor from what you're hearing now and not a waste of effort. ;)

I may sound like a shill, but nobody is making money on this except Madisound (and they don't need my help). :)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on June 24, 2013, 06:46:07 AM
Henry, I know what you mean! I feel like a shill and I'm not going to make a dime on this.....and here we are practically begging for people to make them!

You guys should be listening to us! Stop procrastinating, just build it. You'll be glad you did, if not call us "crazy"!
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Steve F on June 24, 2013, 09:24:57 PM
Ed,
Did the Crown amp arrive? Can we get by with the little guy or is a larger model the way to go?

Steve


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on June 25, 2013, 09:04:39 AM
It came. Made a cable to combine the outputs of the power amp and used with CFA. Pretty damn good. Used with the F5. Did I ever mention just how freaking good the F5 is?

The cable has 500 ohm resistor on each positive going to the center of one RCA The ground on the RCA is hooked to the neg. on each channel. This make a "y" cable to combine the outputs of the power amp.
I ran the XLS in Bridged mode/low pass....xover at ~55.
I have another driver on the way and will then run in stereo, in the mean time this is freakishly good.

Yep, it's good, but get the XLS 1500 or above...........the only reason is that the s/n ratio on the 1000 is 97db and on the others it is 103 db. I think this is worth the extra hundred bucks. I may or may not send mine back and trade up.......only because the s/n ratio is better.....not that it will matter but since I am aware of the difference it may bother me at some point....Just the way I roll.

I was up in till 4am listening. Apparently the Svedka I was drinking didn't have any alcohol in it.
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on June 29, 2013, 12:41:43 PM
For you guys needing cheap plate amps to drive a pair of FFRS, check the Hawthorne Audio forum "for sale" section.  Two Dayton plate amps for $175...  ;D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Magidrakee on July 02, 2013, 08:28:11 AM
For all Canadians attempting the total Redneck experiment... I think I have found a place to buy the Peerless driver at a good price.

https://www.solen.ca/pub/index.php?catalogue=description&id=356&recherche=&numRows=&niveau1=&niveau2=&niveau3=&manufacturiers=19&s1=14&s2=&s3=&s4= (https://www.solen.ca/pub/index.php?catalogue=description&id=356&recherche=&numRows=&niveau1=&niveau2=&niveau3=&manufacturiers=19&s1=14&s2=&s3=&s4=)

This looks like the correct driver (based on the 830667 number and specs), but please tell me if you spot a difference. I'm ordering 2 asap.

Charles


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on July 02, 2013, 08:48:29 AM
Hey Charles, yep, that's it and a good price!
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on July 04, 2013, 07:20:08 PM
Ok, I ordered 2- 600 ohm 1% resistors and built 2 cables for the Crown XLS 1000 to make a high level connection to my CFA and F5. I have run the 2 subs in stereo with them. Works great. Last night I realized the drivers were 8 ohm and the Crown puts out stupid power in bridged mono at 4 ohms. So I used a "y" cable to combine the signal from the F5 (via the 600 ohm cables) to the Crown. Wired the subs in parallel and gave it a shot. I much prefer this.......2- FFRS Mark 4:20 i. wired in parallel and the XLS in bridged mono using the "Y" adapter to combine the two channels of the power amp to supply the XLS with a mono signal.

You'd think stereo subs would be better but that is not what I have found to be true in my case. 2 is better than one but mono with 2 is better than stereo, in my case! Not exactly what I was expecting.
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Magidrakee on July 05, 2013, 11:41:54 AM
Are you going to return the XLS1000 and try a 1500 or a 2000 in stereo? Do you think it's a power-only issue?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Capt. Z on July 05, 2013, 12:01:11 PM


Yep, it's good, but get the XLS 1500 or above...........the only reason is that the s/n ratio on the 1000 is 97db and on the others it is 103 db. I think this is worth the extra hundred bucks. I may or may not send mine back and trade up.......only because the s/n ratio is better.....not that it will matter but since I am aware of the difference it may bother me at some point....Just the way I roll.

I was up in till 4am listening. Apparently the Svedka I was drinking didn't have any alcohol in it.
Ed

What sound difference would the 6 db in s/n ratio make, especially with a subwoofer???


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on July 05, 2013, 05:28:42 PM
Hey D.,  a good bit if not used as a sub amp. It is very versatile, they are all the same in the features, the 1000's s/n ratio is pretty good, the others are outstanding and they have a lot more power. I'll keep the 1000 but if I was doing it over and had the extra hundred bucks I'd get the 1500 just for the s/n ratio.

Hey Charles, it's not the power....the thing has plenty in any config. Could be anything, room nodes? It's very nice to have the choice. I've not spent anytime at all messing with placement. Got too much stuff to finish. Everything backed up waiting on the cases and the freaking rain has been killing us. I'm getting caught up on the electronics but the damn rain is going to clog up the Horn building. Already a week behind.

Next time I order parts I'll order a couple double pole, double throw switchs and stick it in a box (or just wire in line with speaker wire) with binding posts to make a phase reversal switch. Will make two but only need one when doing mono. That's the one feature I wish they had.....phase reversal. Too much trouble to reverse wires. Dang, as I typed this It hit me I could mount the switch on the bucket with the posts! Either way will be good.

That would make it the "FFRS Mark 4:20 i. Ver. P.S." :)
Ed




 


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Magidrakee on July 06, 2013, 07:54:32 PM
Well, I finally built two. Proof here ;) (first video from my iPad, had to find a reason. Mic sounds like shit, or course.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXfoLmXt-nQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXfoLmXt-nQ)

I used a Paradigm plate amp from an old sub. I found out it was driving a single 3.3ohms driver so I happily paralleled my buckets and ran the thing, fingers crossed. Success! Switched between 0 and 180 phase, prefered 0. Crossover was best for me around 70hz. They blend so well with the Horns that you can go well over 50hz and still benefit. That was a nice surprise. They won't go deep, but too deep bothers me for music content anyways.

I will eventually check for the Crown amp, but the FFRSes sound already DAMN good with my cheap amp.

Build them!



Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on July 06, 2013, 08:01:57 PM
Hey Charles, do you have the rubber feet on them? They'll go deeper as that driver loosens up! They are so cheap it's almost like free isn't it? :)
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Magidrakee on July 06, 2013, 08:11:12 PM
Hey Ed,

No rubber feet yet, I was thinking of sticking a few hockey pucks under them eventually...  ;D

Yep, awesome deal! And fun to build too.

Charles


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on July 06, 2013, 08:22:25 PM
Charles, Charles, Charles.......the RUBBER feet are important! Use 3 because 3 points define a plane. You want soft compliant feet, not spikes or anything hard. Trust me. Report back!
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Magidrakee on July 06, 2013, 08:26:12 PM
Will do!


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on July 07, 2013, 02:34:56 AM
Hey Charles, good job!  :)

Mine are set at 70Hz as well and sound excellent there as I my Horns are out from the wall and away from any corner reinforcement.  I think some good feet will make you happy.  ;)

Being a bassist yourself... as long as they can hit 41Hz, that's the main thing, right? ;D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Magidrakee on July 07, 2013, 04:33:48 AM
Thanks Henry, I play a 5-string so 31hz it is :)

I will look for some feet. Understand, I had to keep some upgrades in the bank while waiting for the NT... ;)

My Horns are in corners, but still, I like the subs @ 70hz. My rooms has a big dip @ 50hz so maybe I'm compensating for that. What's interesting is that I could not go higher than 50 with my other (ported) subs.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Steve F on July 07, 2013, 07:54:18 AM
 Try using your stubs in dual mono or stereo. They are so damned cheap I might build four of them. Then I could have flanking stubs for a bit of low end help, placed alongside the horns and a pair of mono stubs  probably opposite each other in the room.

This isn't my idea. Parham, Geddes, and LeJune prefer this setup. Your room nodes will disappear. There is evidence that placement isn't critical, just as long as they aren't all in the same spot. Parham likes a flanking pair, and LeJune call his setup a swarm.

Ed and I have both had good results with two mono buckets along the wall near the Horns. These stubs are crazy good. I cheated and used construction tubes, but will use buckets next pair. Pretty much the same, but there is no way in hell my wife is going to let me display buckets with the house up for sale.

Steve


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Magidrakee on July 08, 2013, 09:51:52 AM
Mine are in dual mono config at the moment, close to front wall, and they rock. I have no stereo sub amp to test with, but that will come. So many interesting configs to play with... that means lots of fun!

Ed, could you please "lecture" me on the rubber feet? ;) Of course I trust you and I plan to put some, but I would like to understand the physics behind this and why decoupling (?) them from the floor is better.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on July 08, 2013, 12:45:59 PM
Ok Charles, will you and the rest of the class please have a seat. You guys in the back, shut the Hell up. Quit screwing with the girls, too.

Now, before I begin I must say that this is a free course and as such it should be noted the information is worth exactly what it cost. Plus, it's on the internet so it must be true.

In response to your question regarding the type of feet used on the FFRS Mark 4:20 i. ............Hell, because I had rubber feet just sitting there! Why else? Ha ha,  had you didn't I?

Over the years it seems that rubber always seemed to produce more bass than spikes unless the spikes are driven through the carpet and into the wood beneath. With hardwood floors this kinda dings them, wifey gets mad. With tile like I have the spikes are not a good choice either. So anytime a sub is on tile, hardwood (you don't want to mar) or any hard surface the rubber has always seemed "best".

A possible side benefit is that the rubber feet do seem to "add a little bottom" when they really should have no effect. I suspect this may be due to them causing the sub to act somewhat like a "tactile transducer". Spikes on tile do not seem to do this.

Class, please understand the above are just "theories" your opinion may vary as well as your mileage.

Dismissed.
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Magidrakee on July 09, 2013, 07:02:27 AM
Thanks Ed.

From what I understand, grip to the floor is most important, with soft rubber adding bottom for some reason... Do you think this "added bottom" is accurate, and/or the result of "springing rubber" (if that makes sense)?

I do have a few ideas, and some spikes around! My wife tolerates the buckets well to date... and should not care too much about small holes, unless you report me... ;)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on July 14, 2013, 12:26:03 PM
... The cable has 500 ohm resistor on each positive going to the center of one RCA The ground on the RCA is hooked to the neg. on each channel. This make a "y" cable to combine the outputs of the power amp...

Just a follow up on resistor values to yield more gain from the Crown amps...

I found that using a 330 ohm resistor gives me the best results.  For some reason (and I have no idea why), the lower value I've tried (68 ohms) didn't significantly increase the signal and it seems that the 330 ohm value gives a better quality sound.  It could just be me imagining things regarding bass quality being affected, but I'm pretty certain that the 68 ohm resistance didn't provide more signal volume.  Maybe it has something to do with the impedance the Crown amp likes to "see" or a reaction with my tube amp... or both.  ???

Regardless, I like what the 330 ohm resistance does which is in the ballpark with Ed's cable.

Also, just so you guys don't waste your time and cash... I've tried an adjustable LOC (line out converter) often used in car audio.  I was hoping that it would allow me to adjust the signal strength on the fly for different amps, etc.  It did.  But, the one I tried didn't result in any gains in signal quality or quantity.  With the trim pots wide open, it still didn't give me enough signal to be better than the 330 ohm inline resistor.  Stick to the inline resistors... much better and cheaper.  ;D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on July 30, 2013, 12:57:04 PM
Bruce ran some sweeps and said it's flat from 25-100hz at up to 106db!
http://tubehifi.websitetoolbox.com/post/Subwoofer-Project-6426090?trail=45
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Magidrakee on August 02, 2013, 11:55:43 AM
Congrats Ed!

They really don't get the attention they deserve. They are the perfect mates for the horns. My wife told me the other day (without even me asking) "I love this kind of bass, it's not annoying at all". She used to hate bass.

I tried a few feet configurations and tend to prefer spikes on my wood tiles.




Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on August 02, 2013, 05:19:06 PM
I like them too... Nos. 3 and 4 are in the works.  ;D

Being single has its rewards sometimes.  :D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on August 23, 2013, 09:34:40 PM
FFRS Mark4:20i appropriately in stoneware. ;)  Just out of the kiln tonight and mocked up. I'll add the quickrete, attach some feet, paint the grills and do some damping tomorrow. :)

(http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t593/henrysutton/Earthtunes/earthtones025_zpsc6a5dc19.jpg)

(http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t593/henrysutton/Earthtunes/earthtones024_zps1b16b51f.jpg)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: rodge827 on August 24, 2013, 07:29:07 AM
FFRS Mark4:20i appropriately in stoneware. ;)  Just out of the kiln tonight and mocked up. I'll add the quickrete, attach some feet, paint the grills and do some damping tomorrow. :)


Very nice!  8)

I have been through the thread and perhaps missed the part about damping material?
What is used, where is it placed and how much needes?

Chris


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on August 24, 2013, 08:26:17 AM
FFRS Mark4:20i appropriately in stoneware. ;)  Just out of the kiln tonight and mocked up. I'll add the quickrete, attach some feet, paint the grills and do some damping tomorrow. :)


Very nice!  8)

I have been through the thread and perhaps missed the part about damping material?
What is used, where is it placed and how much needes?

Chris

Hey Chris, the plastic buckets don't need damping, so don't worry about those.  These pottery cylinders ring like bells.  ;)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: rodge827 on August 24, 2013, 08:32:14 AM
Ohhh I get it.

Thanks for the reply Henry and please let us know how they sound.  :)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on August 24, 2013, 09:25:59 AM
Hey Chris, Henry is right, don't mess it up with damping/stuffing!

Henry< I suspected they might make decent bells :) How about this, make some that will fit over the plastic buckets? Leave just a little space between the buckets. Use them like a "cover".

I'd guess damping them will be difficult! They are beautiful!

keep us posted!
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on August 24, 2013, 12:59:36 PM
...I'd guess damping them will be difficult! They are beautiful!

keep us posted!
Ed

The concrete helped a lot and I've adhered some thin foam to the inside walls, now they don't ring so much.  I'll see if they sound decent later, I may have to pull the liner out and try something like plastic shelf paper if they don't sound comparable to the mighty plastic buckets.

If they don't work at all, I'll throw some flower pots that will recess in the 8" opening and have some nice planters for the porch. ;D

Bucket covers... hmmm.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: rodge827 on August 24, 2013, 02:23:01 PM

Henry< I suspected they might make decent bells :) How about this, make some that will fit over the plastic buckets? Leave just a little space between the buckets. Use them like a "cover".


I was thinking the same thing...Hmmm how to increase the WAF?...perhaps a cover of some kind like a square box or tube about an inch taller than the sub with grill cloth stretched across it?

I wonder how much the plastic contributes to the over all sound?

Does the back wave of the driver "breath" through/with the bucket flex?

Maybe putting the sub in a decorative enclosure would change it's performance?

Just thinking out loud here.... ???

Project time!!  ;D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Steve F on August 24, 2013, 02:40:25 PM
Henry, Go to your local U Haul store. Get one of their cheap furniture pads. I suppose some 3M Super 77 would hold it in place. The "felty" material should damp things down pretty good. The pads are cheap.

I hope you can get it to work. Those look soooo cool.

Steve  8)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Capt. Z on August 24, 2013, 03:12:41 PM
Maybe hide the sub under one of these.

(http://www.globaltextiles.com/html/images/upload/products/66/66067.jpg)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on August 24, 2013, 06:56:05 PM
Getting closer... letting the concrete fully cure tonight, painted the grills matte brown. 

BTW, these grills are dirt cheap and not bad, Stamped metal with a rubber surround.  $1.50 at Parts Express.  :) http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=269-107 (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=269-107)  You have to tack them to the flange with a little silicone or coax seal.  They look good on the buckets and don't interfere with the woofer excursion.  Especially nice if you have pets and/or children... or women that don't appreciate the beauty of a sexy cone.  ;D

(http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t593/henrysutton/Subwoofer/earthtones026_zps4c7bbb0b.jpg)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: johnnycopy on August 24, 2013, 07:52:22 PM

BTW, these are dirt cheap and not bad, Stamped with a rubber surround.  $1.50 at Parts Express.  :) You have to tack them to the flange with a little silicone or coax seal.  They look good on the buckets and don't interfere with the excursion.  Especially nice if you dont want children... or if you have women that don't appreciate the beauty of a sexy cone. 

Beauty henry, but this sounds like you are talkin about somethin a little more racy than a subwoofer here  :)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on August 24, 2013, 08:14:14 PM
johnnycopy, you word twister... and mind reader.  :D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on August 26, 2013, 10:06:39 AM
They work!  Still loosening up a bit, but sound really good. I'll hook the other buckets up soon to make a foursome once these get more playing time. :)

This stoneware is thick and very hard (two cone 6 firings).  You could cook food in these (I make oven ware with the same process). These are much harder and more durable than terra cotta or glazed ceramics, so I can't say that putting drivers in a typical outdoor planter is a good idea.  Most commercial offerings are low-fire, softer clay bodies, and probably won't sound quite right. 

So there's the disclaimer.  ;)

(http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t593/henrysutton/Subwoofer/earthtones030_zpsbd370766.jpg)

(http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t593/henrysutton/Subwoofer/earthtones029_zps2a621f21.jpg)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: rodge827 on August 26, 2013, 12:53:57 PM
Very nice Henry!  8)



 


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on August 27, 2013, 07:07:13 AM
Rodge827, I saw the post you made at AC. Thanks for spreading the word. John R seems to have a little comprehension problem.....he wrote "Anyway, no graphs or measurements, no actual technical information and a pretty unusual claim: "forcing it acoustically and electrically to perform as a super sub".
.

While there are no pretty little pictures or squiggly lines on graph paper I'm not sure how this is not easy to understand......Bruce measured it and as plainly as he could say it he wrote..... "Real time analysis in a typical live listening room shows the Bucket Sub to be essentially flat from 25 Hz to 100Hz.  One Bucket Sub can produce that output up to about 106 dB then it starts running out of steam.  Two should be able to reach at least 109 dB." No, he did not specify a +- tolerance but "essentially flat" pretty much says it all. Seeing a graph will not change that!

As to "forcing it acoustically and electrically to perform as a super sub". This is not an unusual claim at all.........happens all the time. I do the same thing with my Cube.

I'm always amused when guys make opinions on stuff they know little about. They'll plug some numbers in a computer program, get a simulation and then believe they actually "know something" about something they have no clue about. There is more to it than meets the eye. A speaker is a system not just a collection of parts. If the driver were all important wouldn't I have just built a box? Wouldn't that be a product I could sell? So why did I not do it? Why have I not done it by now? Why will I never do it? Those are questions one might ask himself! The FFRS Mark 4:20 i  works because of the whole design, not just because it is a bucket and a driver.

Bruce also wrote this and it is "important"....."The Bucket Sub greatly benefits from lots of current drive so a high power class D plate amp is essential.  Performance improves as current drive goes up.  Several hundred watts will get the job done".

At first I did not think stupid amounts of power would be as beneficial as it turned out to be.....I highly recommend at least 2-500 watts. The Crown amps are "perfect" and should be on the short list of amps.

Thanks again Rodge827
Ed




Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on August 27, 2013, 08:16:36 AM
It's apparent that JohnR has an agenda as usual. :P Nothing ever changes, whether it's 2003 or 2013.  :)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Steve F on August 27, 2013, 11:30:37 AM
The bucket sub is controversial? In the time spent not understanding it, you could build it and see for yourself. I guess every forum has a guy like that. I know that I won't waste my time with them anymore.

So, first let's assume that Ed's rather vast experience is meaningless. Come on. Computer programs are useful tools. I use them as starting points. They can save design time. If you aren't careful, they can lock you into very limited choices. They don't replace knowledge & experience. Doesn't this guy get that Ed is giving back to the community?

The part where Bruce's statement is challenged is just plain foolish. If you have any reading comprehension, you don't need charts. Is he questioning the honesty of Bruce? Give me a break.

Steve


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: rodge827 on August 27, 2013, 01:28:56 PM
Hi Ed,

Your welcome for spreading the word about your generous project.
The thing is so simple to do...Heck even an accountant could build one, love the sound, and like how it looks on a balance sheet! ;D

In the end we smoothed over everything, joined hands,and sang Kumbaya.  :-*
JohnR doesn't seem to be a bad guy, but at times (Ahem) even yours truly has been bitten by the Audio Snob bug! ::)

Chris

 


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on August 27, 2013, 03:14:04 PM
...I know that I won't waste my time with them anymore...

You aren't alone Steve, I haven't posted there for three years until today.  Ed does a nice thing and it's greeted with school-boy snarkiness from the "enlightened".  ::)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on September 13, 2013, 11:57:00 PM
I now have four FFRS (two originals and two in stoneware) and have listened to them for a few weeks.  They are running in stereo (2+2) and wired in parallel presenting something close to a four ohm load to the Crown amp.

If you can swing making four I highly recommend it for several reasons.  I have the four distributed on the front wall, a few feet apart on ether side of the speakers (I don't have corners and the Horns sound best a couple of feet from the wall in this room).  The bass is impressive with its effortlessness; even at low volume something special is happening.  It's coherent and dynamic, seemingly augmenting/improving the imaging of the presentation. 

The low-frequency room modes have greatly diminished in my 15' square room with 10' ceiling.  The front wall is live and the back is fairly dead with upholstered sofa, and 6'x2'x4" bass panels on each side of a draped double window.  There is a thick wool rug covering most of the wooden floor.  The additional woofers made a big improvement in the room's acoustic colorations for sure.

So, I have more coherency and dynamics and the square-room peaky bass modes have been vanquished.  My stuff has never sounded better and a few hundred bucks is all it took. :)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: rodge827 on September 14, 2013, 05:21:10 AM
Henry,
Four bass augmenters for a few hundred bucks? Very nice!  8)
Duke Lejeune at Audio Kinesis makes the Swarm Bass System it consists of (4) 8" bass modules that are placed asymmetrically around the room.
The idea is to control room nodes at the listening position.
I think he sells them in the $2500.00 range + shipping. :o  
http://www.audiokinesis.com/product_ak_swarm.html

A while back I was turned onto the Dspeaker Antimode 8033s ($450.00), the "s" means stereo, for my 2.2 system.
It did a world of good for taming room nodes and when the Dual Core 2.0 ($1200.00) came out I purchased one and use it as a preamp, dac, equalizer, and room correction device. You can also measure the room from 20khz-20hz with the Dual Core.  There is also the 8033c ($350.00), the "c" means cinema, that will fix room nodes in mono. I use the 8033c for my HT rig with very good results also. Bottom line is these units work and have put the best bass in my rooms that I have ever had. They do come up for sale and can be purchased used for less money. Do a search there is a lot of info out there about the Dspeaker Antimode products.
http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products.shtml  

Chris





Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: sonic on September 14, 2013, 08:22:35 AM
Four bass augmenters for a few hundred bucks? Very nice!  8)
Duke Lejeune at Audio Kinesis makes the Swarm Bass System it consists of (4) 8" bass modules that are placed asymmetrically around the room.
The idea is to control room nodes at the listening position.
I think he sells them in the $2500.00 range + shipping. :o  
http://www.audiokinesis.com/product_ak_swarm.html

A while back I was turned onto the Dspeaker Antimode 8033s ($450.00), the "s" means stereo, for my 2.2 system.
It did a world of good for taming room nodes and when the Dual Core 2.0 ($1200.00) came out I purchased that and use it as a preamp, dac, equalizer, and room correction device. You can also measure the room from 20khz-20hz with the Dual Core.  There is also the 8033c ($350.00), the "c" means cinema, that will fix room nodes in mono. I use the 8033c for my HT rig with very good results also. Bottom line is these units work and have put the best bass in my rooms that I have ever had. They do come up for sale and can be purchased used for less money. Do a search there is a lot of info out there about the Dspeaker Antimode products.
http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products.shtml  
What kind of bass traps do you use?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: rodge827 on September 14, 2013, 08:38:28 AM
I don't use any bass traps, no need for them with the Dspeaker units.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on September 14, 2013, 09:17:43 AM
I don't use any bass traps, no need for them with the Dspeaker units.

Thanks Chris, I'll look into it, but I'm doing really well now, and analyzers scare me (At my age, I have flat line phobia). ;)

Besides, getting by without big chunks of canvas-covered insulation adorning your walls is just wrong... so un-audiophile-ish.  Wake up and join the "special" party.  Your wife will love you for it. :D

BTW, I have $1500 into a highly regarded, musical 2-subwoofer system that's going to be relegated to secondary duty, thanks to bucket mania.  As Macklemore would say, these buckets are a "come up".  ;D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: sonic on September 14, 2013, 10:56:43 AM
I don't use any bass traps, no need for them with the Dspeaker units.
What dose the frequency response look like?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: sonic on September 16, 2013, 06:02:20 PM
rodge827, how do you know if you need bass trap or not if you don't know what the frequency response is like?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Bbakertx on November 14, 2013, 08:55:17 AM
Parts Express had the Peerless drivers for $56 this week.
So I jumped on two of them.

I found a bucket I like a lot - only problem is the logo will be upside down as built.
(http://images.lowes.com/product/converted/010943/010943254576lg.jpg)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on November 15, 2013, 12:23:54 AM
Thanks for the heads up on the drivers. it's nice to save a few bucks.  I was unaware that PE carried them as well.   :)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Pit Hinder on November 15, 2013, 01:44:47 AM
The problem with PE being in the US is, for me, the same as Monacor being over here is for you.  :'(
Price plus freight means your bank manager might contemplate homicide.

(Sentences like "You might want to increase my card limit, I need a new yacht"...not good.)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on November 15, 2013, 06:33:58 PM
The problem with PE being in the US is, for me, the same as Monacor being over here is for you.  :'(
Price plus freight means your bank manager might contemplate homicide.

(Sentences like "You might want to increase my card limit, I need a new yacht"...not good.)


 ;D But... if you buy two drivers (spend more than $98), the shipping is free.  Think of all the money you just "saved" by spending more.  :D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Pit Hinder on December 04, 2013, 05:31:22 PM
Good one. The interesting pairs we got for next to nothing, and the basement is full of "someday" projects... ;D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: 2wo on December 05, 2013, 11:19:28 PM
Basement full of "someday" projects.

Gee I thought I was the only one...John


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Pit Hinder on December 06, 2013, 05:05:40 AM
Want parts for a ~1952 washing machine?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Capt. Z on December 06, 2013, 05:10:16 AM
Only if it is a Miele top-loader washing machine  ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Pit Hinder on December 06, 2013, 05:15:17 PM
Yyyno, the front door is somewhat big, it might be a freezer.
As soon as my moped´s front mudguard is fixed I´ll have a look.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Bbakertx on December 22, 2013, 01:05:23 PM
Finally got my bucket subs wired up and playing today.
Ed said to give the concrete 2 days to dry.  I ended up giving them 3+ weeks to make sure... ::)

Very tuneful, they add a nice weight to the bottom end.
Using a Crown XLS amp, I was able to dial them in pretty seamlessly with my temporary Pioneer '41 bookshelf speakers.
Great jump factor.

Thanks to Ed for a nice easy project and a chance to put some buckets in my living room.
My wife has some slipcovers planned for them already.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: DoS on February 04, 2014, 03:07:12 PM
Has anyone tried "swarm" placement with multiples of these? It's been talked about, but?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on February 04, 2014, 08:54:09 PM
Mine are along the left side wall....in mono, no need for a "swarm".  You can see them in video at some point.
This was my room now our bedroom. Sounds great!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l37KC2iyK0E
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: DoS on February 07, 2014, 11:27:08 AM
Need? This is all about wants and likes! And I don't know till I hear it.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on February 10, 2014, 10:35:55 PM
DoS, I would never discourage anyone and adding more may lower distortion. I would put a phase reversal switch on each one and plan to do that to my two. If you have any of the Crown amps 2 will be plenty and one probably enough. They are subs, not "bass augmenters" like The Cube. The Cube was designed to restore the mid bass that you lose when the Horns are not in corners. It can be used as a sub but the output is limited compared to big "subwoofers". The FFRS Mark 420i is a subwoofer, not a "bass augmenter.".
I think if you build one, you'll want two and build a second. Then you'll think "ok then, I'm done".

Again, we should all build the phase reversal switch if we are using the Crown or any other amp that does not have one and I would suggest the switch at the sub so that each one can be independent. It might not be a bad idea to mount it to the bucket , like maybe right above/below the binding posts or wire exit. :)
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Al on February 25, 2014, 08:17:08 AM
Greetings, Forum denizens ...
1st post ... Been lurking since the begining. Really like the POV here.
I'm running FF85k in Buschorn I ... Hypex DS 4 ... Dayton Quatro 15
sealed... Small room.  I'm going to be building the Bucket Sub. (faster,
better horn integration)   Still can"t get how 25 Hz flat can be had in
half a cu ft.  Is the flex of the sides the magic?  I ask because I'm
wanting to veneer a solid tube. Any diff between the solid pottery
and vinyl "cabinet" ?  Also, are you all using boost to get there ?  If
I had to get another plate amp (Yung SD 500) should I get the one
with 6db boost @ 25Hz. ?  Thanks !  ...  Al


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Cheerwino on February 25, 2014, 05:43:32 PM
Welcome Al! I don't have a FFRSMark but heard it at Ed's house. I think the plastic bucket is part of the secret sauce and I can't see a ceramic pot being the same. In fact, I'm sure the less wife-friendly the bucket color, the better the sound!  ::)

If you are trying for a different room decor look than Home Depot orange or camo, perhaps you could edge the bucket with decorative fabric and cover the top with a mesh or speaker cloth.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on February 25, 2014, 06:49:42 PM
Hey Al, I have not measured it in my room. Bruce Rozenblit measured it and I believe it was in a corner. There was no bass boost or eq. as far as I know. It does seem to defy logic and what should be possible. It's  the least "boomy" sub I've heard and it is a sub and not a "bass augmenter" like my Cube. I do not know if Cheerwino is right, he could be....at first I thought the bucket may be making sound but it does not vibrate at all!

I hate to "give it all away".....and I keep saying...."build it exactly as described......so what if it also behaved as a "tactile transducer" when "built as described"? Would that be cheating? :)

Get the Crown XLS series amp.....build the high level cable.....it's very good with typical "plate amps", it's spectacular with the Crowns.
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Bbakertx on February 25, 2014, 07:18:24 PM
Ed is definitely right on the Crown XLS amp.
It has done a great job driving both the Bucket subs and my OB subs.
MUCH better than any of the plate amps I tried.

Plenty of power, easy to configure the x-over, price is reasonable, and should last for a very long time.



Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Al on February 26, 2014, 10:55:00 AM
Well, OK then,  all ahead full on the Bucket !  Thanks a lot for the replies !   Al


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Bbakertx on March 11, 2014, 07:45:12 PM
FYI - Parts Express has a sale on their 10" waffle grille that is a perfect fit to protect the woofer.
They were less than $2 each.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Cheerwino on March 12, 2014, 02:56:13 PM
FYI - Parts Express has a sale on their 10" waffle grille that is a perfect fit to protect the woofer.
They were less than $2 each.


Cool. Y'all please let us know if the drivers ever go on sale. I'm in the process of working through the perfect lard bucket for a sub!


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: johnnycopy on March 12, 2014, 04:01:03 PM
FYI - Parts Express has a sale on their 10" waffle grille that is a perfect fit to protect the woofer.
They were less than $2 each.


Cool. Y'all please let us know if the drivers ever go on sale. I'm in the process of working through the perfect lard bucket for a sub!

Leave a little residue for some fat bass lines!


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Cheerwino on March 12, 2014, 04:03:06 PM
FYI - Parts Express has a sale on their 10" waffle grille that is a perfect fit to protect the woofer.
They were less than $2 each.


Cool. Y'all please let us know if the drivers ever go on sale. I'm in the process of working through the perfect lard bucket for a sub!

Leave a little residue for some fat bass lines!


LOL! Good one! :D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: houston on October 08, 2014, 02:32:00 PM
Greetings all,

First, thanks to Ed for his generous sharing and supporting of this design!

I bought a couple of the 8" SLS to use for some homebrew HT subs. These drivers seemed to be a good fit for the available space and funds. And I don't need 120db of 30hz, I just need something to keep these damn Marvel movies from entirely destroying my bookshelves. (Not to mention the family Rocksmith sessions seem to only get a little crazier each time.)

Also, I've had some wood in the garage that I've wanted to use up for years (I think most of it's gone through at least 3 moves), and building them means I can make them to a size and shape that will work well as speaker stands for the satellites.

What brings me here is that in searching for existing designs, I found very little out there. These drivers seem to be used in mobile quite a bit, but perhaps are simply too small for most home applications. I did, however, find the "bucket build" on multiple sites!

I've discussed a little with Ed offline already, and while I'm not one to shy away from the low-budge approach (my ht screen, for ex, is the $20-at-Home-Depot Parkland sheeting, held up to the wall by carpet tape), the bucket design presents two inherent problems: it doesn't use up my scrap wood, and it doesn't make for such a good speaker stand.

That said, if there was a reason that they work so well, that they can extend that far below "ideal" sealed boxes (Qtc of 0.7 = 200 liters = F3 of 45hz), then of course I'm game. But if these (16-17 liter?) buckets have no reason to work better than a typical small box of say, 30-40 liters, then I'll go ahead and build the latter. So that's what I'm hoping to understand. Is there some sort of magic (ie, advanced physics) here, or is it simply a matter that this driver works better than it's supposed to, and a plastic pail filled with a little concrete happens to make a better speaker enclosure than one would expect.

For and amp, I do plan to use a standalone power amp. I'll be coming off the "sub out" of my AVR, so it will be doing the xo duty. A little unfortunate, because it's likely only 12db/oct. I'm hoping to try it at around 70 to start, but a little concerned that it's still a bit much bass for the sats. To have 24db or more filtering of course would be nicer (as would being able to run the subs in stereo), and I know Ed is a fan of the Crown that offers it. But that's only on the bass side, right?

Another thing I may look into is that since my only sound source is a single spdif from a PC, there may be filtering possibilities through software. I'd need something that can decode dts, then allow me to filter the various channels and output to analog. Which would also open up the door to triamping. But it also has to be friendly with blu-ray software, which may be a tall order, since blu-ray has copy protection up the wazoo.

Anyway, thanks for listening, and for any comments offered.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on October 08, 2014, 09:18:39 PM
Houston, please read the first post on this page, if you did not see it....I have not measured it at all, nor did I measure the driver. I got nothing for you on how and why it works. It just does, if built exactly as described. Bruce actually measured it so all the info on performance was donated by him.

If you already have the drivers, a pair of buckets and a bag of cement doesn't cost much, you then just need the feet and anchor screws.

I always run my mains full range so the Crown amps are simply killer for this application. I've personally never had good success filtering the mains.....and I always use a high level connection to the sub amp.

Just so you know the way I roll, in the couple days we've communicated I'd have already thrown them in a box I threw together (after supper) while the cement dries on the buckets I was going to compare them too. :) Not kidding, once I get going on an idea I'm more interested in how it performs rather than the theory behind if/how it works.

I'm not kidding here....once on a forum while in a discussion on speaker building/horns I stopped typing, went outside and threw together a constant width bass horn sub. I had 2 full sheets of mdf......I drew the path out.....cut the pieces, glued and shot nails in them and put the other side on. It was huge and worked pretty good. It was fun to go in and post "fellas, while you've been discussing it I just went outside and did it." Took under 2 hours. It was huge and meant to be placed along a side wall. Waaaay too big to be practical for anything but DIY. 2 sheets of MDF is heavy! it was not a precision built device but was "proof of concept" and a success in it's purpose. Those 2 sheets told me more than all the thinking and math combined could ever tell me. It was a cheap lesson. The math gave me the path/flare rate....that is all I cared about. The comp chamber and throat was "adjustable" if needed.

You see my point? The math is needed and many live by it only,  however, in reality sometimes it lies or is slightly fibbing. Much more to it than just the math!

Build the boxes! You have the stuff. Throw together some buckets and you fill us in! I promise that many reading this thread have the same questions!

Welcome aboard, and I hope this helps in some way!
Ed
ps....the full design evolved, in just a couple days....just a speaker on a bucket was not all that swift, just promising enough to make me keep scheming  :) The cement and feet and anchor screws changed things dramatically in ways that I'd never have predicted. It went from something you'd expect to something I could not understand! Experiment!





Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: houston on October 09, 2014, 11:08:09 AM
Ed, don't think I haven't been curious to build a both a bucket and a box, to compare them directly. But I can tell you if I were to do that (especially as one who can't whip out a speaker box like it's a stack of pancakes or an Excel spreadsheet), I'd spend maybe an hour or two to set it up, and get it to where I thought it worked best. Then it would more than likely remain as my setup for the next 5 years. I'd return to my regularly scheduled programming (such as, a hobby that I'm trying to turn into a profession, that -should- be getting -all- my attention).

So while I love the idea of experimenting, testing, and sharing the results, it's simply not something that would remotely make sense for me to be taking on at this point. For me to build speakers at all probably doesn't really, but I can somewhat make it make sense, as long as the time and money invested are minimal. And that's already coming into question, considering that it -should- be as simple as finding a design that fits the parameters and simply copying it. Just as there are a gagillion lines of open-source code out there, allowing programmers to build anything they want with great efficiency, simply by piecing together routines already created by others before them.

And doesn't that sort of beg the question, why don't you know how and why it works? Not to take away from the viability or novelty of the design, but why is this a seemingly new discovery? I don't see any esoteric sizes or shapes or materials or techniques being used here. And it's not exactly as though sound reproduction is a small or new market. Given the 10's (if not 100's) of thousands of people who've "done this" professionally or as serious hobbyists over the last several decades, shouldn't this have all been worked out years ago? Should it really fall to a complete novice to try to help figure out why it actually works?

If it's really the case, Ed, that you've stumbled upon something that works far better and/or differently than it -should- (based upon the expectations of those with reasonable expertise, which your profile certainly seems to fit), then almost by definition, shouldn't you be talking to the patent office about it? Yes, I'm serious. Clearly you've been around the block a few times, and if you truly can't explain it (despite any small traces of snark above), get it patented. Why not try? Otherwise, if it really is that good, somebody else certainly will. What speaker company wouldn't want to own the rights to a way to get great bass out of a cabinet that costs them maybe $3 in raw materials and can be made in 5 mins of actual production time?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on October 09, 2014, 12:31:46 PM
Hey Houston, I'm sorry, I thought you were looking for "answers". :) My point is, and maybe was missed, which is easy given my rambling writings, ( I have a concussion right now) you will not achieve your goal unless you build something to see if it works for youand even then there is no guarantee of success. The FFRS Mark 4:20i is a finished design that anyone can build for next to no money.  It's performance was documented by Bruce Rozenblit, who actually measured it. He also added it to his DIY speakers, I'm pretty sure he was not making shit up :)

It's a freaking speaker in a bucket for God's sake. It also destroys "high end subs" in many respects. The fact I do not know why or how  is irrelevant to me. It is what it is. Why not just build one rather than worry about how it works is the way I go at stuff.

I seriously doubt Bruce would have added it to his web site and then made the measurements and the comments he did if it were not "special".

Discussion is good,doing is better.

As to "patents".......that is simply not possible, as you said

Quote
I don't see any esoteric sizes or shapes or materials or techniques being used here. And it's not exactly as though sound reproduction is a small or new market. Given the 10's (if not 100's) of thousands of people who've "done this" professionally or as serious hobbyists over the last several decades, shouldn't this have all been worked out years ago? Should it really fall to a complete novice to try to help figure out why it actually works?

I'm afraid you missed the point......I was suggesting you simply build them and report if everything you heard was true. I am certain you will not figure out why it is so good, Hell, no one else can either.

But you could certainly build them and since you asked about comparable sized boxes of wood, and that seems to be what you want, why not build both? That is what I was suggesting

It is a DIY thing........my job is over....I gave it away and you can't patent a speaker using a bucket!

The only way you will get "guaranteed" results is by building something proven and following the design exactly or you can buy a commercial product of known specs.

Yes, I do have a "little" experience in speaker design and no, I have no idea how it can work as well as it does and have no idea how that driver would compare in a box.......I never tried it :)

As I told you in email, discussion is good and others benefit from it! :)
Ed




Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on October 09, 2014, 12:43:50 PM
Hey Houston,
My brain is a little damaged right now (pesky concussion) and so I just thought of this.......

If driver X is put in enclosure Y and the result is A.....then you put driver x in enclosure Z which is not identical in every single way would you expect the result to be A even though enclosure Z  has one thing in common with enclosure Y (volume)?

The answer, it can not be, it is impossible......

On an even more basic level......mdf for one box and plywood for the other. Will they sound the same with the same driver? Not hardly.

A speaker is a system, not a collection of parts...........regardless of how/why it works, speculation will not change things!

Hope this helps a little more!
Ed



Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: houston on October 09, 2014, 01:20:12 PM
Ed, I'm certainly not a patent attorney, but it seems you might be a little quick to write it off. Based on my understanding, there are 2 major criteria:

1. Be the first. Don't try to patent something that others have been doing for years, just because nobody's bothered to try to patent it before. Yes, you've shared the design, but you didn't take it from anyone. (Which isn't to say it's never been done before, but that's what would need to be found out.)

2. The results need to be non-obvious. For ex, if I build a piano with 110 keys, and all that does is allow for extra low and/or high notes, I can't patent that. It does what anyone (who knows what a piano is supposed to do) would expect. But if it turns out that playing "Ode to Joy" on those extra keys enables time travel, then my 110-key piano absolutely can (and will) be patented. In your case, it's a somewhat silly design, done in fun perhaps, that works much better than expected, based on your considerable expertise. And it's irrelevant that materials used are common or not. You're not trying to patent them. As you said, it's the results created by the system that matters.

Which certainly isn't to say that it's a sure thing. Or anything you'd choose to pursue. But for sure not "impossible", based on my (not extensive, but not novice either) experience with the USPTO.

Also, an important aspect is to define what "it" actually is. For ex, a bucket can be a lot of things, as far as materials, shapes, sizes, right? What matters is the object's critical properties in your application, not that it happens to be colloquially referred to as a bucket or pail or whatever. It's a (vinyl?) plastic cylinder with whatever various aspects.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: houston on October 09, 2014, 01:38:34 PM
If driver X is put in enclosure Y and the result is A.....then you put driver x in enclosure Z which is not identical in every single way would you expect the result to be A even though enclosure Z  has one thing in common with enclosure Y (volume)?

The answer, it can not be, it is impossible......
Ed, you know well that there's never any such thing as "the same" in audio. Build 100 of "the same" cabinets, and fill them with 100 of "the same" drivers, and each will be slightly different than the next. There's a good reason that things that come in pairs or groups (speakers, vacuum tubes, etc) are often matched.

What is "matched"? It's comparable, to within a given tolerance. And that's really what we care about, because "the same" simply doesn't exist.

So it's all a matter of tolerances. And what falls within tolerance ("close enough") will of course be different for every individual.



Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on October 09, 2014, 05:55:50 PM
Hey Houston, well, I think I'll disagree ;) I have been specifically referring to speaker design during this discussion with respect to how a box might compare to the bucket and giving reasons why the comparison can't be made. They are not the same.

I'll give it one last go..... I build speakers for a living. They are in fact all the same. They all perform the same for all practical purposes. If I build one from MDF and one the "normal" way they are not and will not be the same even though all other things are. They will sound completely different. I know this for a fact.

This applies to what we've been discussing......just because I don't understand the how's and why's is not important. It's just a fact modifying any design changes it. Making it a different size, of different materials or even a different shape changes the original and the two can not be compared and you can not use one to predict the performance of the other, even if the drivers are "matched to insane tolerance".

I see no reason to split hairs on something so well established and well known as the fact changing anything in a (speaker) design results in a different animal.

As a guy who has built speakers for >40 years now I know for a fact trying to predict them from math is just "a first attempt" and a starting point.There are plenty of programs that predict speaker response. I'll tell you what I told a guy that infuriated him...."I've looked at your work and it is accurate, it will tell you with fair accuracy what the result will measure. It will not tell you how it actually sounds and most likely it will predict a "perfect" match to the model, and it will sound horrible."  You see, his "work" was to predict models for a concept I knew 20 years ago was "bad sounding", regardless of how it measured. he failed to take into account the things you don't learn in books......one being excessive excursion to achieve the response curve desired. On paper, no problem, in reality......uh, not so good.

There are examples of this all over the place.....a good one is the speaker that is "97db efficient" but yet can not play at 100db without audible distortion. The math would not suggest this but there are real world examples. I could explain how this is possible but I'm tired of typing!

Ed





Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on October 09, 2014, 06:17:42 PM
Dang it! Houston, we have an answer, to the bucket questions, sort of!

Henry has built a cylindrical enclosure of ceramic for the driver!

Henry, tell us! Do they sound "the same", similar or different than the bucket, are there audible differences? Please share your thoughts!

See, Houston, we beat that damn horse hard and long enough we might get there :)
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Magidrakee on October 10, 2014, 02:49:11 PM
There is so much in a speaker system.... I guess even the small conic shape of the bucket can affect the way air compresses/decompresses inside it....

By the way, did anyone try two buckets in isobaric configuration?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on October 12, 2014, 10:10:19 AM
Magidrakee, yep. Everything matters. Like I said  many times in this thread, I have absolutely no idea how it is possible it works so well. Believe me, if I could build and sell something this good that would be economical and pretty I would! Sure, My Cube is a decent device and much easier to live with. It is not better, dang it!

Isobaric, I built many, using different stuff.....flue pipe, wood, PVC.....combinations of those....I'm afraid that the devices never lived up to the promise. Sure, you could shrink the enclosure and they should have had lower distortion. I never felt they were worth the price of the extra driver. I never felt they "performed better" than a well designed sealed sub.

That said, I'd never discourage anyone from trying anything! The buckets seem to lend themselves to it! I have not experimented at all. Keep in mind that buckets come in slightly different shapes (mine are slightly different from each other) which may be a factor in an isobaric design as far as "repeatability". I do not think the small variances in shape affect the FFRS as much as they might an isobaric. The shape of a Lowe's bucket is different from a Wally World one and this would affect the chamber volume......would it matter? Heck who knows and I'd not mind if someone found out! :)

Answer is yea, I thought of it right away and then dismissed it for the reasons above!
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: johnnycopy on October 12, 2014, 01:23:14 PM
Ed, to be honest... the grey plastic bucket from Lowes rules.  I'm such a subjectivist, I have no means of measuring sound.  And I know that discredits me in some eyes.

I have to admit there's something really good going on with that stupid plastic.  I do think the stoneware cylinders dig a few hertz deeper.  I do think the the plastic buckets compliment two channel music via the Horns better.

Reality sucks.  I wanted my rigid stoneware to trump Ed.  It isn't happening, damn it.  I'm fortunate enough to meld the two together in a four (2+2) configuration with some serious wattage. 

After having what I thought was the best solution in bass, I'm now beaming when I have a chance to hear my modest system that defies logic.  My neighbors seem to be amused.  ;D

Everything in canada is different, though we do have lowes.

What size bucket, volume, height and diameter is your lowes bucket, Henry? 

Thanks John


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on October 14, 2014, 02:41:37 PM
Hey John, this is the one I used.  Also, I used the food grade lid from them as well.  The white food grade lid has more rigidity and a better seal.  I hope this helps.  :)

http://www.lowes.com/pd_211810-1788-5RT+CONTAINER+GY50_0__?productId=3761915&Ntt=grey+bucket&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dgrey%2Bbucket&facetInfo= (http://www.lowes.com/pd_211810-1788-5RT+CONTAINER+GY50_0__?productId=3761915&Ntt=grey+bucket&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dgrey%2Bbucket&facetInfo=)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: luvdemhorns on October 22, 2014, 09:54:23 AM
Looks like I'm going to break down and build one!   I'm looking to use this subwoofer amp:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dayton-Audio-SPA250-250-Watt-Subwoofer-Plate-Amplifier-300-803-/221476593867?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item339108a0cb

Will 250 watts be enough? I'm trying to keep costs to a minimum


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on October 23, 2014, 06:31:29 AM
Hey Luv, it should have enough power and the fact that it has a 24 db slope xover is good. It should be fine but I'd go for the Crown XLS 1000 if I could swing it! Simply because I know for a fact it kicks butt!
Please let us know what you find out!


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Steve F on October 24, 2014, 01:14:37 PM
Ed, Henry, Did you find any sound quality differences between theCrown XLS 1000 and the bigger 1500 and up models?  Crown claims 6db.  I wonder if anybody hears a difference besides more volume. And how do they sound full range with the Truth and Horns?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Bbakertx on October 24, 2014, 01:36:01 PM
I have the XLS1500 and it does kick some butt as a subwoofer amp.
I've used it with Ed's buckets, an Epik Legend whose amp died, and with some OB 15s.

I did NOT like it as a full range amp.
I don't have a comparison to the XLS1000 though.



Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: luvdemhorns on October 24, 2014, 06:31:56 PM
The Crown XLS1000 appears to have several output power versions. What is the minimum output recommended?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on October 24, 2014, 09:40:10 PM
Hey Luv, they just list different power levels into different loads.....215 into 8 ohms per channel which would be for one FFRS on each channel .....but if you use two and run them in parallel for a 4 ohm load and run the amp in bridged mono it can spit out >1000 watts!!!!! Or just a measly 700 watts in bridged mono running one FFRS (8 ohm load). I prefer my two FFRS in parallel with the amp in bridged mono. I am not a fan of stereo subs....I prefer multiple subs but with them getting a "mono" or combined signal. For me this has always given the best integration.

Brad, I agree, it is a crazy good sub amp but as a full range amp, well, not so much.

Steve, I have no idea.....the only real difference between the 1000 and all the others is the s/n ratio and power. The 1000's s/n ratio is a little worse than the others but still quite good. Damn thing has plenty of power and for a sub amp the s/n ratio is fine. Brad confirms they may not be the best amps to use in a real stereo but I think we both agree any in the series kicks ass as a sub amp.

I went to make sure mine had the peak limiters cut off a few minutes ago and there was a damn Brown Recluse sitting right next to the power switch......it's borderline crazy....we sleep in a damn spider nest! Does not even faze Helen. So far they don't bother us (other than a couple small bites) and I have not bothered them....... I actually kind of like them but not really sure why. They are timid, shy and hide most of the time. They need to go but I hate to do it.

I am very glad our friend Henry introduced me to the Crown XLS amps! He has the Big Boy 2500........the 1000 is no slouch but if I had the funds I would not feel it a waste of money to get the 2500!

I honestly feel like I would buy the best in the XLS series if I had the funds to spare. The 1000 is crazy good, the 2500 is over the top with no downside and it has a better s/n ratio than the 1000!

Well, 12:30, time to head to the spider nest for a relaxing night's sleep
:)
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Bostock on October 29, 2014, 11:03:36 AM
So is the Cube still available?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on October 29, 2014, 07:23:58 PM
Hey Bostock, sure but the dang FFRS Mark 4:20i is so good and cheap it rendered it obsolete. Granted, not everyone will want a bucket in their room so it does still fill a niche.

One thing that has changed is that I will recommend/force the Crown XLS series amps be used for it. There is simply no reason to use a lesser amp. The Crown is more expensive but worth it. The performance of the thing is totally dependent on the amp powering it. The amp I supplied in the past was certainly adequate but not in the same league as the Crown.

Hope this helps.
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Bostock on October 30, 2014, 07:09:27 AM
Thanks Ed.

I guess I am one of those who doesn't want a bucket in my room ;D

I realize am taking a long time to pull the trigger but for various reasons I am holding off purchasing the Horns. I figure eventually I will purchase a pair of horns and see if the room they go in will have enough LF and then purchase the cube if I decide it is necessary for my application.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Bbakertx on October 30, 2014, 12:27:18 PM
Starting at $299, the Crown is a bargain.
Parts-Express also sends you a nifty Crown baseball hat. ;)

You could easily dress up the bucket with a fabric slipcover to match your room.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: bb1959 on October 30, 2014, 01:26:26 PM
Bbaker,

I know we had talked about you coming over and listening to my GHH. The offer still stands. I'm in the Heights. Let me know.

Brooks


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: bb1959 on October 30, 2014, 01:28:44 PM
I also have the cube Bbakertx.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: luvdemhorns on October 30, 2014, 02:13:50 PM
I will break down and get the XLS1000.  I'll do one FFRS for now.  I noticed the unit only has RCA inputs.   Better double check my integrated amp for a pre/sub out!

I'm going to build my FFRS in the next day or so.  Got the Peerless driver in, and bought a 5 gallon bucket from a local paint shop.  Found out the industry standard for the thickness of 5 gallon bucket is actually 090mil.  Most of the box stores and hardware stores sell the 070mil buckets, unless listed as Food Grade or Heavy Duty. Even then, many are still 070 mil. Unless it says 090 on the bucket or lid, it is probably 070. The measurement seems so minor, but it is a night/day difference in stiffness!  There are even 100 mil buckets available online, but large purchases are required.   

I have left-over wire (12 gauge mil spec silver-plated, and 16 gauge UPOCC copper) from mods done on my hybrid integrated amp that I'll use for internal wire.  I 'll also use a pair of big, cheap gold-plated brass binding posts as well as the rubber screw in feet from the amp upgrade.  I resisted the urge to use on the FFRS items I used on the amp (Pomona Electric 3770 copper bindings posts, and Herbie's Audio Tenderfoot feet) to avoid extra costs...although they are stupid good for the money.  Those items made pronounced improvements with the amp, but primarily in the mid and upper ranges.  I doubt they'd have the same impact at subwoofer freqs.  Finally, I'm going to use a flat black spray paint to help the FFRS blend in better (visually, not sonically!) 


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on October 30, 2014, 06:15:18 PM
Luv, the pre amp to sub amp connection is the worst way to hook a sub up. A high level connection is always (IMO and experience) better. For the Crown you want to make a high level cable and use it to go into the Crown. Use a 600 ohm resistor to make the cable....that is the magic number for the Crowns.
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: luvdemhorns on October 30, 2014, 07:30:20 PM
Ok Ed,

Making this cable may be out of my skill set lol.  Is this an RCA cable that goes to the RCA input?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Bbakertx on October 31, 2014, 07:35:28 AM
BB1959 - PM sent, and thanks for the reminder. 8)

Luvdemhorns - Ed might be persuaded to make you a converter cable for a reasonable amount.
 ;)

Just to derail this a bit further.  I have a different room in the house that is going to be a home theater.
The roof of that room is directly accessible in the attic, so I'm going to purchase a 2nd Crown XLS and four 15" Dayton IB drivers for the bass.
It's a big room - 15x25 with 11'+ ceilings.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on October 31, 2014, 07:58:07 AM
Luv, the cable is super easy and cheap and yes, Brad is right, I can make you one.

I'll make a post later with instructions and maybe a pic.
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: luvdemhorns on October 31, 2014, 02:39:59 PM
Ed,

I'll take your instructions and take a shot at it in order to save time!  Cement is setting and I want to have it running Sunday (3 days curing)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on November 01, 2014, 10:24:20 AM
Luv, if you are using the Crown amps you will need a 600 ohm resistor ,1/4 watt is fine. Radio Shack may have them.....if not two 1.2K in parallel will do. The concept is very simple. You need an RCA plug on one end and bare wire on the other.

How you accomplish the next step is up to you.....that resistor needs to be "in line" (series) with the center pin on the RCA. This is the "hot" lead which goes to the red (+) on the power amp along with the plus going to to main speakers. The shield of the RCA is the ground and goes.....you guessed it, to the black (-) post on the power amp along with the negative that goes to the speaker.

To be clear......hook the speakers up normally. Treat the cable with the RCA plug as if it were another speaker and hook it to the binding posts along with the main speakers.

Plug the RCA into the Crown RCA inputs......that is it. The resistor just knocks the level down and the power amp will not "see" the load at all.

This is important!!!! The Amp Camp Amp's speaker binding posts are reversed!!!!!. Other amps may be this way as well, especially Pass Labs amps

The black post is actually the "hot" and the red post is chassis ground on the ACA!!!!!  Again, the concept is that the center pin with the resistor MUST be hooked to the "hot" on the power amp and the shield MUST be hooked to ground.....use a meter to make sure your power amp's black post is in fact the ground!

Hope this helps!
Ed

ps......you could take an old set of IC's and cut one plug off, strip the insulation back several inches and simply solder the resistor to the center wire and then solder a piece of wire to the shield wires to give you the ground wire. The resistor could be hooked directly to the hot amplifier post.....no need to add a wire to it. Make sure all wires are insulated with heat shrink or tape. This is the quick and easy way.





Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: luvdemhorns on November 01, 2014, 04:00:20 PM
Ed,

I'll be safe and ask if I can commission you to make a set for me.  I've found the simple electrical things have caused me problems!!  Email me the costs when you can.  The bucket will just have to cure more lol


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on November 01, 2014, 04:13:04 PM
Luv, send me all your info via email....... thehornshoppe@gmail.com   
I should be able to get you something out Mon. I may just send you mine if I run into time issues and can't get a couple made up.
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: luvdemhorns on November 02, 2014, 06:31:03 PM
Thanks Ed...email sent. BTW,just picked-up locally a 4-month old like-new Crown XLS1500 for $200.  Just about set now!

I'd like to make an observation others may already know.I noticed a big difference between the 070 and 090 mil buckets. After pouring in the concrete (about 3 inches worth) I tapped on the bucket several times over the first day.  The sound and "feel" felt the same: like a plastic bucket. But this evening is day three. The bucket sounds strikingly more solid and the walls feel, oddly enough, thicker. Definitely not like the original empty bucket or the freshly poured bucket  I guess it's a lesson in the sum of parts: while the cured cement has less mass with the water evaporated, it is denser.   Yes,the little things I notice more!!


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on November 03, 2014, 02:20:34 AM
Thanks Ed...email sent. BTW,just picked-up locally a 4-month old like-new Crown XLS1500 for $200.  Just about set now!...

Nice find!   :)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: luvdemhorns on November 06, 2014, 05:54:22 PM
Ed,

The cables arrived quickly and safely...thanks!   Hooked up everything and, believe it or not, I'm not doing any critical listening. I have the crossover way up at 500hz and the Crown output near max to loosen up the driver. Playing some some Oscar Peterson Trio with a lot of strong upright bass!  I'm not maxing the sub-woofer driver (integrated amp volume isn't too loud)...but am giving it a good steady workout.  I'm amazed at how little the bucket walls vibrates with the high output and high crossover freq.   Just want to loosen the driver for a few days before doing any casual listening with a normal cutoff and low output.   I'll report back over the weekend!


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on November 07, 2014, 08:27:06 AM
luvdemhorns...
I'm getting ready to cut loose a pair of TBI's and the associated sub amp.   Ed has done it again.  ;D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: tone deaf on November 14, 2014, 05:52:13 PM
 Hello Ed, and all,
        Sorry I don't have your speakers Ed. Actually I have no speakers right now. I'm in the middle of building a new system after years of having no nowhere to set up. Although where I have now is a terrible place, and the speakers have to flank a fireplace, on an elevated brick outcrop. The fireplace is elevated about 16" off the floor with a brick section in front of it that is also raised. It measures 5.5' x18" and is 16.5" high. My speakers when they are done ( Madisound BK-16's with Fostex FE166En's ) will have to be on this brick platform with only about 4' between them, and only about 4" behind them to the brick wall. So that's about 5' between the actual drivers. Not ideal, I know. So the only place I have that I can put a sub would be in between the speakers, eighter on the platform, or on the floor between them which should put the top of the sud right about the height of the bottom of my speakers which are front firing back loaded horns. This might be OK. But you said the Crown amp likes 4 ohms. To use two subs I would have to put them side by side, and they may shoot some of that low note pressure up my horn mouths. So one is probably best. The only other possible place for a second would be in the back of the room. But that would be about 4' to the left of my listening spot. So If I do the sensible thing, which I'm not usually known for, and build just one, Do you think it will sound OK with the Crown XLS 1500 set on bridges Mono into 8 ohms? Or do you think that a sub that close to my listening position would still blend in with out me noticing it being so close? Thanks for any help.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Capt. Z on November 15, 2014, 06:43:17 AM
In my last listening room I had my down-firing sub right next to my listening chair and I never felt that the bass was coming from right next to me.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Steve F on November 15, 2014, 09:08:47 PM
Hi Capt. Z, you picked the one good spot for a single sub. Right by you. Two subs are much better. The room nodes smooth out a lot. Parham and Geddes both recommend four. Of course to have that many subs, I'd need to sit on one and use another as a table.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on November 16, 2014, 08:42:13 AM
Hey TD, I'm afraid that you'll just have to experiment. I do not think it's possible to predict results or position when dealing with subs. I am of the belief they should end up where they want to be. Mine are no where near where one would expect them to be.

Ahhhh, the BK16........they call it a "horn". Not the case in my opinion, if one adheres to the accepted definition of a true horn! The mouth is waaaaay too small to be effective at the freq. it needs to be. A "real" horn must have a compression chamber, a throat, one of the accepted flair rates and an appropriate sized mouth. The only way to shrink the size of the mouth is to corner load it. This is not possible with a front exit mouth.

Speakers similar are exactly why so many say "single driver speakers suck". Drives me wild. I have read way too many times about the "sound of the 126" because of it being used in an unsuitable enclosure. I have even seen my speaker disparaged because someone heard the BK or similar designs and decided "all back horns  suck", even though they did not actually ever hear The Horns! There is a reason it got all the reviews it did. Since it has not really changed I do not expect reviews to happen much anymore. I won't be sending out the great Horned Heils anyway even if an offer of review was made! Too much risk/trouble.

The BK may sound ok, I never heard a pair but I promise, they are not "horns" regardless of what Fostex calls them :).

They will benefit greatly from the subs, you chose wisely with the amp!

Don't let my little rant about improper "backloaded horns" upset or discourage you! Not the goal at all but rather just to hint not to compare it to other similar designs or especially a back loaded corner Horn, like mine :).

Ed

 




Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: tone deaf on November 16, 2014, 06:27:28 PM
Ed,
  Rest assured, I wasn't comparing the BK's to anything. I have never heard them. I actually read some good reviews about them, and bought them. They are assembled, awaiting a clear finish. To be done soon. I have nowhere to put a horn that fires to the rear, and I have no corners to put them in. So I'm stuck where I am. I can play with the sub's position a little. I will have to make do with what I have, the BK's, a Tube Labs 300B amp with separate power supply, a modified Jolida Glass FX tube DAC, a Shiga MK II Transport, the Crown amp and sub's. Still waiting to buy the Crown and Peerless speakers. I'll play with what little tuning I can do to the BK's, and the room. But I do have a wife. Otherwise, I'd through all the fancy furniture out of the living room, and make that my listening room. But I make do with what I have to work with. I will have to build the sub's to have some WAF. A plain bucket won't go over to well, so I'll have to disguise them to look like speakers. I'll post photo's when done. Thanks for the reply's.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on November 16, 2014, 06:36:31 PM
TD, you'll be fine. The FFRS will work great for you and will be just the ticket for the BK. You might look at the fake stone coatings to use on the buckets. Do make a high level cable to use with the Crown, don't use a split from the pre amp signal if you can help it.

The Crowns like a 600 ohm resistor....this seems good for all the ones I've seen so far.

Please do post pics, I'm sure there are people who'd like to see ways to disguise them!
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: tone deaf on November 16, 2014, 07:26:29 PM
Capt. Z,
     I see from another post that you have a ACI Titan Sub. I just so happens, in my other system, that know is in a small bedroom packed with junk, is a DIY HiFi Supply Ella KT88 tube amp and a set of ACI Sapphire III Ti's, and a pair of down firing subs with out power amps. The predecessors of the Titans. Very nice speaker combo. Very flat down to below 20Hz. I didn't even think about using those subs with the BK's. The finish won't match the BK's. Besides I want to build the buckets anyway. Well it gives me some possibility's. Thanks for the reply.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Capt. Z on November 17, 2014, 11:15:22 AM
Hi tone deaf;

Mine are NOT the Titan, but the Sub 1, (Passive) probably the same as you got. I am very familiar with the Sapphire II Ti, since I started of with the Kevlar version, then upgraded to the Ti dome, and later on to the Scan Speak Tweeter. I still have them playing with one Sub 1 in the living room, while the other Sub 1 is used with the Great Horned Heil. Great subs. Ah, I remember I changed the drivers many years ago for the drivers in the Aci Titan.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Bostock on November 17, 2014, 11:24:09 AM
Ahhhh, the BK16........they call it a "horn". Not the case in my opinion, if one adheres to the accepted definition of a true horn! The mouth is waaaaay too small to be effective at the freq. it needs to be. A "real" horn must have a compression chamber, a throat, one of the accepted flair rates and an appropriate sized mouth. The only way to shrink the size of the mouth is to corner load it. This is not possible with a front exit mouth.

Ed




Hey Ed,  if the BK 16 is not a "horn" what would you say it is... a TL?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on November 17, 2014, 02:21:58 PM
Hey Bostock, well, the mouth is way too small to be a horn and it's bigger than a conventional TL should be.I have no idea what it should be called. With a mouth that small it should not behave like a horn at the freq. it needs to in order to balance the rising output of the driver.

It is what it is.....not a horn but of course they can call it anything they want.
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Bostock on November 17, 2014, 02:37:27 PM
 ha ha...

Yeah, I guess they can..... ;D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on November 17, 2014, 05:20:06 PM
Hey Bostock, keep in mind that unless my little speaker is in the corners it's mouth is way too small as well. Lots of guys use them well out in the room....usually with a sub.
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: audiostar on November 17, 2014, 06:50:21 PM
Here is more info on the Crown XLS amps.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=130191.0


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: audiostar on November 17, 2014, 06:56:38 PM
tone deaf,

I see that you have the Shiga MKII Transport. I have been reading about the Shiga on diyaudio forum.  How good is the Shiga?  I read that you can't beat for the money.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Bostock on November 18, 2014, 08:00:54 AM
Hey Bostock, keep in mind that unless my little speaker is in the corners it's mouth is way too small as well. Lots of guys use them well out in the room....usually with a sub.
Ed

Hey Ed, what do you think about this design?

http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/arcadian-audio-pnoe-horn_e.html


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: tone deaf on November 18, 2014, 12:46:33 PM
tone deaf,

I see that you have the Shiga MKII Transport. I have been reading about the Shiga on diyaudio forum.  How good is the Shiga?  I read that you can't beat for the money.


  Yes I do. So far it sounds great. I have the High Grade model. I'm in the middle of building a whole new system. Speakers, Amp, Transport, DAC, and subs. I've got it all working. I'm need to complete the build for the box's for the Transport and it's power supply. And then clear coat everything, and final assembly. So In my small crowded shop through an old Denon amp, and pair of Mirage book shelf speakers, and a Jolia Glass FX tube DAC with Telefunken smooth plate 12AX7's, the transport sounds great. I can hardly wait to hear it through my new 300B amp when I'm all done. But the way it is now, I'm pretty amazed. The separation of instruments, the texture to voices, and the amount of bass I'm getting from these book self speakers is unreal. Not extra bass, or boomy or bloated. Everything is so right. I'll let you all know in a few months, when I have the whole system up and running. But if you want one of these transports, you better hurry, because I think this is the last group buy for the parts. I think it will go on till end of December, but I'm not sure. And it's not that cheap if you get the high grade model, but I recommend it highly. I think the HG model is about 400 euros for the brd, and I think about 50 euros for the modified CD mechanics. Then you need the transformer, and the CD puck, but those are cheap. The non High grade model is cheaper, I think around 140 Euros for the brds, and 12 Euros for the CD mechanics. But if your gonna do it, go for the high grade if you can. You won't be disappointed.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: audiostar on November 18, 2014, 08:57:56 PM
tone deaf,

Looking forward to your write up concerning your new system in a few months.  Nobody believed me when I wrote about Shiga Transport.  A great transport needs a great dac.  Will you be buying or diy building a new dac?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: tone deaf on November 19, 2014, 11:29:17 AM
    I know this is getting way off topic, but here goes. I have a Jolida Glass FX tube DAC. Very nice DAC. When you buy one you can get it modded before you but it. If I remember correctly, They change the output RCA for Vampires, they change to silver shielded twisted pair wire inside, Change tube sockets to Teflon Comp., And I think they change the six Power Supply caps to Selmic II's . I asked them ( I won't mention names) what they used for the 3 of the caps that were low value, but high voltage, because I didn't see any Selmic caps that would fit that bill, but he refused to tell. Then for a little more they will change the output RCA's for WBT Next Gen's. So what I am going to do is replace the input RCA to a WBT Next Gen. Silver RCA. The Out put on the Shiga will be a silver Next Gen also. The out put RCA's on the DAC will be WBT Next Gen. copper( I couldn't afford silver everywhere ). Wiring inside will be the same silver twisted pair they use, where needed, and V.H. Audio's Pulsar shielded silver coaxe for inputs and outputs. On the power supply I will replace the 3 high value. low voltage caps with Silmec II's, and the 3 low value, high voltage caps will be replaced with Mundorf Poly Tube caps. This means that two of them will have to be mounted outside on top of the unit. Fortunately the Power Supply Brd, is mounted to the top of the unit so I can mount the caps with about 2" of wire. Then I have the Teflon composition tube sockets, and I have Mundorf EVO silver/gold in oil caps to replace the Clarity caps on the output if I decide to after listening to both. Well that's about it.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on November 19, 2014, 11:51:53 AM
i'm getting all green from envy.  Awseome start to a life of fun.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: luvdemhorns on November 25, 2014, 02:39:25 AM
Ed,

Got your email regarding the tests of the cables to track down the hum.  Been out of town and forget I loaned out my multimeter to a friend. I'm lazy and don't want to buy another one, so I'll wait for his return to town Wednesday.  In the meantime, I removed the Jolida integrated from the system and put in the XLS1500 in two channel stereo mode, using the gain controls to control the Jolida JD100 CDP (real tube output, no op amps).  Wow. Whoa. This amp sounds GOOD, seriously GOOD! Smooth, detailed, no listener fatigue.  I listened to music for about 4 hours and resigned myself to be sleepy at work tomorrow! The sound staging and layering is stunning, bass is so good I don't know if I personally need a subwoofer now...call me crazy! ).


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: tone deaf on November 27, 2014, 08:58:50 AM
Back to the woofers. Just ordered a pair of the speakers, and the Crown XLS 1500. Now I have to save for the expensive part, "The Buckets". And then figure out how to disguise them to look like speakers. I've got some idea's. Should be fun.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: cidermill1 on March 25, 2015, 10:03:07 AM
Hi,

Has anyone tried mounting the FFRSMark 4 in a wall cavity, rather than freestanding on the floor?

If not, an opinion about its chance of working as well as being freestanding out in the room is most welcome.

Thank you for your considration of my question.

Best,
Michael


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on March 27, 2015, 12:40:18 PM
I'd try the out-in-the-room route first.  

I assume you're talking about mounting the bucket horizontally behind a wall.  I can't imagine it would work as an IB sub.  ;)

Let us know how you implement it and the results.  Thanks.  :)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: cidermill1 on March 30, 2015, 07:07:17 AM
Yes, there is an under utilized storage cubby above a coat closet next to our living room.

The cubby is big enough to fit the FFRS horizontally with the driver more or less flush with the wall, about 8 feet above the floor.

Will certainly share my opinion of the results if I go forward with it.

Best,
Michael


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on March 31, 2015, 01:32:49 AM
Michael, I'd bet it will be good.   Out-of-the-box thinking.  Best to you and yours as well...


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: cidermill1 on March 31, 2015, 05:31:44 PM
Thank you Henry.

Going to live with the sub on the floor for some time to get a good feel for it, before I start cutting a hole in the closet wall.

But-

Has anyone mounted a conventional subwoofer grille over the FFRS speaker?

Looking for a good way to cat proof the sub while it's on the floor.

My cats used to jump up on the hornshoppe model one speakers quite frequently. Having the heils has made that perch much less attractive to them.

Michael


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on March 31, 2015, 10:00:03 PM
Email me with your address... I'll provide one.  You'll just need some good quality silicone to adhere it.   ;D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: cidermill1 on April 30, 2015, 06:28:50 AM
Hi Ed,

I completed the FFRSMark about a month ago.
First the Model 1, then the Cube, then the Heil, then the amp camp amps and now the sub.
Wow!
The music playing in our home has never sounded more life like.

I just swapped out the Cube for the sub, using the original plate amp and cable. Do I need the 1/2 watt 600 ohm resister that is mentioned with the use of the Crown amps?

Thanks Ed!
Michael


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Steve F on May 02, 2015, 07:00:55 AM
Are you using the Crown XLS series amp?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on May 02, 2015, 09:33:01 AM
Hey Michael, the 600 ohm is only for the Crown amp. Hold what ya got. Get a Crown, trust me.
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: 2wo on May 16, 2015, 03:03:46 PM
Look what I found at Home Desperate.

 They are made of some kind of plastic resin and are very non resonate. They are 18" tall and the  opening is 8.5" ID. Volume is ~8 gallons or 33lt. I am going to try a SLS830667 and see how they sound.

Best yet they cost less then $17 and come in 4 colors...John     


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: vrod on September 15, 2015, 06:36:09 AM
I showed my wife a picture of the FFRSMark 4:20i I planned on building. The most gracious response I got was "totally unacceptable". This coming after I picked her up of the floor! I then started to look for reasonably priced alternatives. Guys, does anyone have any experience with HSU, they advertise units which seem to receive good reviews. I spoke to Ed and he suggested I post on the Forum since he has very little experience with commercially produced subwoofers.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on September 15, 2015, 11:23:36 AM
I'd go for a Crown xls1500 and one of the TBI subs.  The TBI stuff isn't cheap, but they are very good.  :)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Capt. Z on September 17, 2015, 01:24:44 AM
If you can find an old ACI sub that would be great. They also look pretty good and sound very tight and good.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Steve F on September 17, 2015, 10:47:58 AM
I made a prettier version of the subs using a cardboard concrete form. My version had one tube with a driver mounted on each end. I laid the tube on its side.  I preferred the bucket though. I didn't have good placement options. The point is that cardboard tubes can be substituted for buckets. It is more work, but would raise SAF. and is still very cheap to build. All you need to do is match the volume of the buckets, and build plywood end caps. They can be decorated to match the room. You aren't going to beat the bucket subs without spending much more. Sometimes Ed is a redneck genius.

Another easy choice would be to get a Rythmik sub. Servo controlled, flat to 17HZ.  If you want to shake your house off of its foundation, consider a pair of Eminence lab series in 12" size. Crown XLS amps are great with them. They can be equalized to below 20HZ.

Most subs fall short in providing deep well controlled bass. I had an epiphany concerning low frequencies with my last loudspeaker purchase. Subs are best when they have lots of power, high damping factor amps, AND digital equalization.

Steve


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Cheerwino on September 28, 2015, 06:51:07 PM
I showed my wife a picture of the FFRSMark 4:20i I planned on building. The most gracious response I got was "totally unacceptable". This coming after I picked her up of the floor! I then started to look for reasonably priced alternatives. Guys, does anyone have any experience with HSU, they advertise units which seem to receive good reviews. I spoke to Ed and he suggested I post on the Forum since he has very little experience with commercially produced subwoofers.

There's Ed's Cube.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Steve F on September 29, 2015, 09:35:00 AM
Oops, forgot about Ed's Cube. Another winner and very compact size.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: vrod on November 10, 2015, 12:21:40 PM
I have tried a couple of subwoofers but the system just didn't sound right. I then experimented with my Cube and found a good spot. I have good INTEGRATED sound and the cube helps down to 40hz. Its not the FFRS but I can live with this. The Cube does integrate very well with the Horns. Ed sure knows what he's doing!


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Steve F on November 12, 2015, 10:52:26 PM
The cube is good. I think of it more as a bass augmentor, than a sub. The Horns have more bass than most people give them credit for. In a corner, I think they do about 55HZ. The assist of the cube gives the bass that extra bit of oomph to fill out the bottom end. 40HZ is plenty enough for most music. As vrod states, it's a very good match.

I also liked Ed's transmission line sub. Bigger, more complex, more expensive, but properly designed TL bass is magic. And Ed made a nice TL.

steve


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on November 13, 2015, 12:49:14 AM
...I also liked Ed's transmission line sub. Bigger, more complex, more expensive, but properly designed TL bass is magic. And Ed made a nice TL.

steve

Amen.  I should have grabbed a couple when I had the chance.  I liked the form and function, but now I have too much stuff anyway. :(


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: vrod on November 13, 2015, 04:07:05 AM
Hey Steve F. Do you or anyone have a picture of Ed's transmission line woofer?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on November 13, 2015, 05:16:33 AM
Hey Steve F. Do you or anyone have a picture of Ed's transmission line woofer?

http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/hornline_e.html (http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/hornline_e.html)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: vrod on November 15, 2015, 06:26:41 AM
Hey Henry, many thanks for the info and pictures


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on November 15, 2015, 07:01:45 AM
Hey Henry, many thanks for the info and pictures

You're very welcome.  I wonder how two Hornlines powered by some Crown watts would sound.  I guess I'll never know.   :-\


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: johnnycopy on January 16, 2016, 11:12:26 AM
I now have four FFRS (two originals and two in stoneware) and have listened to them for a few weeks.  They are running in stereo (2+2) and wired in parallel presenting something close to a four ohm load to the Crown amp.

If you can swing making four I highly recommend it for several reasons.  I have the four distributed on the front wall, a few feet apart on ether side of the speakers (I don't have corners and the Horns sound best a couple of feet from the wall in this room).  The bass is impressive with its effortlessness; even at low volume something special is happening.  It's coherent and dynamic, seemingly augmenting/improving the imaging of the presentation.  

The low-frequency room modes have greatly diminished in my 15' square room with 10' ceiling.  The front wall is live and the back is fairly dead with upholstered sofa, and 6'x2'x4" bass panels on each side of a draped double window.  There is a thick wool rug covering most of the wooden floor.  The additional woofers made a big improvement in the room's acoustic colorations for sure.

So, I have more coherency and dynamics and the square-room peaky bass modes have been vanquished.  My stuff has never sounded better and a few hundred bucks is all it took. :)

Henry are you running an  infividual set of speaker wires to each sub, or,daisy chaining from one left sub to the second left sub?

Have you tried both ways and seen any differences?

Also what guage wire are you using?

Thanks


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on January 16, 2016, 01:11:18 PM
I now have four FFRS (two originals and two in stoneware) and have listened to them for a few weeks.  They are running in stereo (2+2) and wired in parallel presenting something close to a four ohm load to the Crown amp.

If you can swing making four I highly recommend it for several reasons.  I have the four distributed on the front wall, a few feet apart on ether side of the speakers (I don't have corners and the Horns sound best a couple of feet from the wall in this room).  The bass is impressive with its effortlessness; even at low volume something special is happening.  It's coherent and dynamic, seemingly augmenting/improving the imaging of the presentation.  

The low-frequency room modes have greatly diminished in my 15' square room with 10' ceiling.  The front wall is live and the back is fairly dead with upholstered sofa, and 6'x2'x4" bass panels on each side of a draped double window.  There is a thick wool rug covering most of the wooden floor.  The additional woofers made a big improvement in the room's acoustic colorations for sure.

So, I have more coherency and dynamics and the square-room peaky bass modes have been vanquished.  My stuff has never sounded better and a few hundred bucks is all it took. :)

Henry are you running an  infividual set of speaker wires to each sub, or,daisy chaining from one left sub to the second left sub?

Have you tried both ways and seen any differences?

Also what guage wire are you using?

Thanks

I meant to say they were wired in series using the Walmart extension cord (14ga.)  I haven't tried them in parallel.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: tone deaf on May 10, 2016, 10:04:55 AM

    I am just getting around to building these suds. ED said he is adding a phase reversal switch. But he didn't say why. Could someone tell me why I would want to reverse the phase of one or both sub woofers, please? I'd really appreciate it. I'm about to close them up. Should I get some switch's first? ???


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Steve F on May 10, 2016, 03:10:13 PM
A phase reversal switch is a convenience thing. You could just switch the positive and negative wires on each sub too. Mine had dual banana plugs so it was easy. Just remember that both subs must have the same wiring or they will cancel out each other.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: tone deaf on May 10, 2016, 10:03:38 PM
   Yes, but why would I need to reverse the polarity of the sub woofers?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Steve F on May 11, 2016, 07:39:36 PM
Sometimes room placement will get things out of phase. It's just not her tool to experiment with. When I had them, mine worked best in phase. YMMV.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: tone deaf on May 11, 2016, 08:55:02 PM
 Thank you Steve.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: tone deaf on May 13, 2016, 06:23:19 PM
   Just finished my pair of bucket subs a few hours ago. Hooked them up in parallel, bridged mono. I haven't fooled around with the crossover yet. Just set it at 56Hz low pass. Magic cables with 600 ohm resistors, from my Tube Lab 300B amp speaker binding posts, to the Crown XLS 1500.
     Put on Reference Recordings, Virgil Fox, The Bach Gamut. Man, that organ hits some low notes. And the two buckets reproduces then effortlessly. I have the volume of the Crown at about twelve o'clock. I think I might be able to lower it one notch. I'll have to listen some more. Also, so far, it sounds really good with the crossover set at 56 Hz.
      The Crown signal LED lights up, but not one of the signal level LEDS light up. But I guess its getting enough power with the 600 ohm resistors, because it sounds great. Really fills in the lower end that the BK-16's couldn't do. And blends very well. You can't tell that the bass is coming from the buckets. I am a happy camper. ;D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Steve F on May 13, 2016, 06:52:02 PM
Tone, The Crown seems to have just unlimited current delivery for the buckets. Keep playing around with your set up. The buckets seem to work best below an 80HZ crossover point. I'm guessing that at your volume setting, the amp is pretty much coasting. That is ideal. Lots of current, big time adjustability and no clipping. Next you need to try the Horns, and eventually add the Heils. Ed even uses electronic crossovers between the Horns and Heils.

I think Henry uses Model 2 Horns and four of the bucket subs? The point is, besides being jealous, all of Ed's stuff can be built upon, without getting obsolete. Only a few brands can claim that.

Enjoy your system,

steve


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: johnnycopy on May 13, 2016, 07:37:02 PM
Just finished four bucket subs and run them with a crown xls 2000 running them at 53 hz.

They are wicked good.  Thanks ed for sharing and thanks to ed and henry for their helpful questions during my build.

I added sexy grilles on mine for an extra 12 dollars (for all 4)

Tried to add a picture but it said upload folder is full.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on May 14, 2016, 12:26:53 AM
Hey guys, I have two xls 2500 amps running four subs in bridged mode.  It isn't about volume. It is about how fast they start and stop.  This is what makes music real to me. 

Who would have thought Ed could do this?  ;D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: tone deaf on May 14, 2016, 03:57:56 AM
      They are sounding great. I can play with the cross over, but set at 56Hz it is seamless.
       I saw someone's buckets that were black, and they put chrome car door trim around the edge of the top of the subwoofer (bottom edge of bucket). I did the same. Except that I used gold car door trim on the black bucket, and the black waffle grills from Parts Express. They look really good for a bucket. Now I need to find someone to make a dress for them, with an elastic waist band, to slip over it to dress it up a bit more. I'll even let my wife pick the color material. I think with a nice dress on them they will even be wife acceptable. Although, my wife hasn't complained about the idea of me putting two buckets in the den.
   When I was looking for single driver speakers, I think it was just before  Ed came out with the cube. I looked at Ed's speakers first because I heard some much great thinks about them. But I didn't have any corners to put them in. So I bought a pair of Madisound BK-16's. So far they sound great. And now with the subs they are awesome! Mind you, I live at the south west corner of hell, and I've hadn't the luxury of hearing any other full range speakers to compare. Anyway, I'm really happy for now. Thank you all for all the help you all have been. Wow that's a lot of all's. When I get the dress's made Ill post some pictures. Can't photograph my little girls naked. Child subwoofer porn. Oh no! ::)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: tone deaf on May 16, 2016, 02:33:49 AM
    I put on a CD with a lot of stand up bass in it, and I guess since this instrument spans the frequencies where the cross over point for the subwoofer should be, it's a good CD to set up the subs.
    With this CD it didn't sound right set at 56Hz, so I upped it to 59Hz. This made a big difference. Now even the bass notes that are not going to the sub seem to have more weight and body to them, as does the rest of the music.
     Tomorrow, I'll try upping it up one more notch, but I think that might be to high. It sounds so good at 59Hz. Gee this is fun.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on May 16, 2016, 04:08:11 PM
Thanks guys, how great is it that something so simple works so freakishly well? It really is a "SUB woofer" not a bass augmenter like the Cube.

TD, I am at 63hz and have been once I set it in the beginning. There's simply no need for me to screw with it...........again, I find that crazy too. Many guys constantly adjust levels on their subs....mine has been "set and forget"

I'm ecstatic you guys are happy!

Ed
ps...get the women in your life "Sabre Red Crossfire" pepper gel....get one for you. Trust me here, I was forced to use mine. The results were spectacular. Way better than fighting or shooting :) and man oh man did it do the trick.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sabre-Red-Pepper-Spray-MK-3-Crossfire-1-8oz-Gel-OC-Spray-/181355084332?hash=item2a399afa2c:g:HaEAAOxy7odRyu0~
I did not have to break my hand hitting him! Over in 2 seconds :) And I mean OVER!
Make sure the expiration date is long.....mine is 2021...you and your "significant other" will be very well protected, I promise. Test fire it....it holds plenty :)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Steve F on May 16, 2016, 08:40:56 PM
I think that's where I ended up setting my subs too.

I also assume that printing a pepper spray incident would not be a good thing.

steve

PS: Don't break your hand, how would you solder?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on May 16, 2016, 10:05:29 PM
Hey Steve, no worries.......self defense is cool. Had I been trying to rob the liquor store I'd probably not mention it :)

Get the women in your life Sabre Crossfire..all y'all. With luck they'll never need it. It could save their life if they do need it. I was stunned at how insanely effective it was. It also causes no real lasting damage so there is no reason to threaten anyone with it. If you think they need to be sprayed, just do it and walk away, you won't even need to run.

Many people will not carry a gun......we are not them. Keep in ind the police carry guns AND Tasers (not "stun guns") AND pepper spray. Of the 3,  a woman that does not shoot is best served with pepper spray IMO and if it's Sabre Red Crossfire she's well protected.
Ed






Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: homey on June 01, 2016, 12:40:40 PM
Well I finally got around to building some sub buckets (4).  And I hooked up
two of them (in parallel) and they sound fantastic! pretty awesome for the
amount of cash to build these, & a piece of cake to build.

The other 2 buckets are going in my workshop, but maybe I'll hookup
all 4 and see if I can chase out these termites that showed up recently.
I'll Bet Henry doesn't have Termites :D

So I hooked up a Wellborne crossover that I had on hand, And  It has a fixed 60hz
cutoff,  This gets fed from the 2nd set of outputs that ED installed on my TRUTH.


As For the (sub)Amp,  I am using an old NAD 2200 power envelope Amp that I had
since my high school days.  
I bridged it so the signal is mono.  It kicks pretty good at 2 ohms  (in bridged mode
ohms are halved) so the 4 ohm series load is seen as 2 ohms by the amp.  
The NAD bridged output is 400w continuous, 1600w on peaks (6db headroom)
 & 50 amps max current.

I may get a Crown amp eventually, Not sure how long this old NAD will hold up,
They had issues with the high speed switching relays going out.

HEY ED.................... I have an old pair of Your magic cables,  Will these
work with the pass F1   (I'm guessing not)   I know speaker crossovers are not recommended on the load
of an F1  So I presume an active sub crossover is probably not a good idea, what do
You think....
    



Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: homey on June 02, 2016, 08:00:37 PM
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e233/lairdog/bucket%20subs%20004_zps2nejncxm.jpg) (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/lairdog/media/bucket%20subs%20004_zps2nejncxm.jpg.html)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: homey on June 02, 2016, 08:08:19 PM
 installed  some  threaded inserts 14-20 the feet.

(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e233/lairdog/bucket%20subs%20003_zpsmh9vzoh2.jpg) (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/lairdog/media/bucket%20subs%20003_zpsmh9vzoh2.jpg.html)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: homey on June 02, 2016, 08:10:23 PM
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e233/lairdog/bucket%20subs%20007_zps3eao80ki.jpg) (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/lairdog/media/bucket%20subs%20007_zps3eao80ki.jpg.html)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: NH7RO on September 01, 2016, 06:32:50 PM
Hello to Ed and the group; this is my first post in this forum.  A couple of weeks ago I stumbled across Ed's FFRS subs in a link to this thread posted over on the DIY Audio Subwoofers Forum.

I ended up reading all 15 pages of this thread in one setting!   I was just about to spring for a Dayton Ultimax 15" sub in a sealed 3L Parts Express box as well as one of the Dayton plate amps, then I saw Ed's brilliant redneck bucket sub and I was hooked.

I now run a pair of quasi Orion-type dipoles with SEAS Excel tweeters and 2 SEAS 8" mids per side in DuPont Corian baffles and 2 TC Sounds 12" woofers per side in birch ply H-frames.

My system is tri-amped via Behringer Ultra Drive Pro crossover and DEQ2496 for eq which feeds a Paul Hilgeman 6 channel volume control.  My amp is an Adcom GFA 6006 (six channels).  Preamp and source is nothing fancy; an old Hafler DH-110 preamp and I listen primarily to Spotify out of my old laptop pc.

The sound hitting my old ears (2) absolutely delights me.  I listen to everything from Bach pipe organ, classic jazz, 60s-80s rock, punk, vintage reggae, 90s Algerian rai, Chopin etudes, Colombian cumbias and French hip-hop to Mississippi Delta/Chicago blues and avante-garde ECM jazz coming out of Scandinavia.  There's probably a few dozen other genres I missed but you get the idea---I like music a lot (unlike my wife, who is always telling me to "turn that stuff down!")

So while I enjoy my system a lot I miss the old days when I used to run a Dahlquist DQ-1W alongside a pair of Magnepans and really had a full range of Hertz bouncing around my listening room.  The H-frame woofers are great; nice taut, clean bass but I worry about trying to get too much out of them with my present set up.

Enter Ed's Magic Bucket Solution.  Wow!  I liked them from the get-go, at least from all I've seen and read here.

I ordered a Crown XLS 2502 yesterday as well as 4 Peerless 830667s.  I was going to try two but then I thought, why not 4?

After two days of searching ebay and Amazon and going around to all the local hardware stores in search of the perfectl 5-gallon buckets I ordered 4 this morning (via Amazon) that are ALL BLACK, heavy-duty 90-mil with ribbed tops and gasketed lids.  They will look pretty cool, I think and I will worry less with the sturdier 90-mil type, too.   I also found some bright yellow versions that I almost went with instead (Yellow SUBmarines) but then I thought some more and realized the black ones would look less out of place scattered around our condo's living room over the long run.  My wife doesn't know about this new project yet; I plan to build them when she's out of town near the end of the month and have them running when she returns a couple of weeks later.

I have a few questions that I will ask in future posts but am glad to have found this forum and the wonderfully innovative bucket sub therein.  Coincidentally, I live on what some call the "Redneck Riviera" (Texas Coastal Bend) so my quartet of subs scattered around our 11' x 18' living room should feel right at home. ;)

One of the reasons I chose going with Ed's subs instead of the single Ultimax is that they will probably blend better with my dipoles---I plan to experiment but xover will probably end up being set around 60-80hz.  I will post pictures of my speakers soon; it's time to feed the cat.

Cheers,    

Jeff

PS:  I really like Homey's use of the heavy-duty bolts and lock nuts as anchors, as well as the Gorrilla Cammo Tape that has a very nice matte finish.  I was going to use the same tape (as not much else can really stick or be glued to HDPE unless it's heat welded) and then apply paint to the tape but then I discovered the shiny black buckets up in Boise, Idaho....very shiny and pretty!


Title: Amount of concrete per sub---using rocket science I figured it out!
Post by: NH7RO on September 22, 2016, 09:44:44 AM
Hi folks; Still working on my bucket subs here but am seeing light at the end of a rather short tunnel.  I poured the concrete for two of the subs yesterday before running out to buy another bag of QuicKrete Fast-Setting concrete. 

After doling out and weighing four paper grocery sacks with my big digital scale so that each contained exactly 12.5 pounds of QK (50 lb. sack) I began adding water to the first batch in a 5-gallon bucket (Wal-Mart cheapie purchased for the mixing only). 

The 12.5 lbs was not nearly enough to fill the subs up to the decking screws at the 3-inch level where I'd put them, so another batch was mixed and poured in a little at a time.

Turned out that each sub, rather conveniently, required a full 25 lbs (half-bag) of QuicKrete. 

So since I only had enough to do two subs I hopped in my car and zoomed off to get one more bag at Lowe's.  I went to my local Ace Hardware first but those pirates wanted $10 a bag---so I drove 11 miles to another town where Lowe's is---and they had QK on sale for $3.98!

Made my day, even though I used a gallon of gas to/from Lowe's.

Today I am mixing up the rest and after pouring the last two I'll start work on a DIY angle-aluminum rack bracket for my Crown amp and Behringer crossover that will fit atop it.

Pictures and a thread about my build of these 4 Bass Miracles will be posted here and also on the DIY Audio subwoofer forum soon (approximately late next week).

But now we know exactly how much concrete is necessary for a 3" base inside the buckets, in case anyone else was wondering (25 lbs per bucket)

Cheers,  Jeff


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on September 22, 2016, 09:51:01 AM
Hi Jeff, just a few points.......build the high level cable using a 600 ohm resistor to get the signal to the crown. Wire them in series/parallel and run the amp in bridged mono. I've found multiple subs running in mono to integrate better than running them in stereo.
Welcome aboard.
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: NH7RO on September 22, 2016, 11:41:33 AM
Hi Ed; Thanks for reminding me of that way of feeding the Crown although lately I've sort of planned on running the two pairs in stereo and wired in parallel to show 4 ohms.  But integrating them is more important than the impedance that the amp will see in bridged mode---I know---so will likely end up using your method in the end.  Good thing I haven't cut the speaker cable yet, ha, ha!

I also considered running the extra line outs (from the "lows" channels of my six-channel Adcom amp) into the Crown's line in but I have no idea what value of resistor I would need for buffering when combining the stereo into mono.

At least I had the foresight to buy two 680 ohm and two 330 ohm resistors when I was in town last week just in case I opted for the Magic Cable route after all.

Heck, just as I was about to post this I realized that I will need to figure out how to hook them up in series-parallel---I've already installed dual banana plug style binding posts and have the sets of dual banana plugs handy---and the Crown only works down to 4 ohms.  If I were to wire all the subs in parallel that would result in a dangerously low 2-ohm load.

Going series parallel brings that up to 8 ohms which is fine but I'll need to run a single wire between each sub to its mate and then connect the other "loose ends" of the dual speaker cable together as well.   Doable but not all that neat, if you see what I mean.

I'll scratch my head some more and figure it out.  Meanwhile I'm heading outside to mix that second bag of concrete.

Thanks again,  Jeff


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: NH7RO on September 23, 2016, 11:08:58 AM
I figured out a way to use one continuous length of speaker cable and still wire things in series-parallel; by "tapping" one side of the two-wire cable at the two front subs and connect the ends of the cable to the rear subs.  I will also connect things the same way at the amp's mono output so everything will be hunky dory (8 ohms mono).



Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: NH7RO on September 29, 2016, 07:46:33 PM
My swarm of four is finished and humming along very nicely with the big Crown in bridged mode.  Using Ed's Magic Cables with 680 ohm resistors on the.775v input sensitivity setting and all is well.  Xover set at 59hz at the moment; started out at 90hz and have been going down ever since.  Left (bridged mono) input gain is at about 12 noon for now but I am still getting things dialed in.

I love 'em!  More details and photos to follow in a few days or so.

Cheers, 

Jeff,  NH7RO


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: NH7RO on October 21, 2016, 01:30:16 PM
At long last here are some new photos of my system with the bucket subs (two of which are in back of and to the sides of my mains);
 (http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww18/Zagando/Latest%20speakers%20w%20subsOct2016%20069_zpsljhsxcpi.jpg)

(http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww18/Zagando/Latest%20speakers%20w%20subsOct2016%20071_zps3kmrs4ns.jpg)

[/(http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww18/Zagando/Latest%20speakers%20w%20subsOct2016%20077_zpsouw9d0x6.jpg)

[/(http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww18/Zagando/Latest%20speakers%20w%20subsOct2016%20081_zpskerq4jvm.jpg)

I am really enjoying these great little subs; even my wife approves, too!  The Crown XLS2502 is a very nice amp, too.

Thanks again, Ed for a fun and worthwhile project.

Regards,

Jeff


Title: PEERLESS 830667 on sale now
Post by: NH7RO on November 19, 2016, 05:56:30 PM
FYI

Just noticed that the Peerless 830667 8" subs are on sale now through December 31st at Parts Express---regularly $66>>>>$58 and some change.

Orders of $100 or more ship for free so if one buys two or more it becomes an even sweeter deal.




---Jeff  (happy PE customer)


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Tablet Man on November 03, 2017, 02:50:37 AM
Hi guys
I built a pair of these last night, gonna try and get em hooked up over the weekend.im gonna be fitting binding posts tonight.
Now while I'm waiting for the concrete to cure can someone help a dumbass like me, I'm struggling to get my head around the wireing.
Is this what I need for my pair of subs?
2 600ohm resistors
2 pairs if IC's
1 Y adaptor
Speaker wire
Banana plugs
I understand how to make the magic cables, how many do I need to make 2sets?
Do they both go into the bridged connection on the crown using the Y adapter? Then the speaker wire end into my power amp? Do I then wire up the subs normally from the power amp?
Sorry for all the questions guys, just wanna make sure I get it right
Cheers
Neil




Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Tablet Man on November 03, 2017, 03:03:12 AM
Also do I just connect the subs like 'normal' speakers two lots of speaker wire using left and right channels from my power amp?

Thanks


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on November 03, 2017, 08:58:21 AM
STOP! The concrete needs to sit at LEAST 3 days before you install the drivers! A week if you did not use "fast setting".

As the stuff cures it will off gas and the  fumes will dissolve the wiring and the wires on the driver! So if you've mounted the drivers take them out and wait .......I'd not put the posts on just yet for that same reason.
Hope this helps!
Ed
ps......more on the hookup later....have to run out for a little while.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Tablet Man on November 03, 2017, 09:31:11 AM
Ahhh good shout Ed cheers
Good job I've not wired em yet, I'll hold off a few days


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Tablet Man on November 07, 2017, 06:22:08 AM
Im struggling to find 600 ohm 1/2 watt resistors over here, anyone have a link to some?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on November 07, 2017, 05:02:30 PM
Hey buddy, don't obsess! 560- 700 should be fine. Also, don't forget you can make the value ........ parallel halves the value and series adds them. Use any combination of parallel and series to get what you want! 2- 1.2 K in parallel will get you 600 for instance. Or 2- 1.0k in parallel gets you 500 and then a 100 in series with that gets you 600. 

You can probably use 1/4 watt......if they fail, they will open and not short (which would be bad :) ). Pretty sure mine are 1/4 watt.

Hope this helps.
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Tablet Man on November 08, 2017, 03:02:22 AM
Thanks Ed,
I've managed to get some 1/2 watt ones hope these will be ok.
I'm all ready to connect everything up now.

Just wanna make sure I've got it right, can you confirm for me please.

600 ohm resistor soldered to center pin of RCA, speaker wire connected to this + to resistor - to ground on the RCA. I make two of these cables. RCA's go into a Y adaptor and into 'bridged input' on the Crown, bare wire ends into left an right channels on power amp as normal ( + into + - into -).
Set the Crown to 'bridged mono'.
Subs wired in PARALLEL to the Crown.

Is all this right? Or do I have anything wrong
Cheers
Neil


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Ed Schilling on November 08, 2017, 08:19:13 AM
Hi Neil, yep. You got it. You might just check with your meter that the L & R  grounds are common on your power amp. You can not use this connection with most digital amps!
Ed


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on November 08, 2017, 11:19:23 PM
Hi Neil, yep. You got it. You might just check with your meter that the L & R  grounds are common on your power amp. You can not use this connection with most digital amps!
Ed

Is there a way to use a class d main amp with the Crown?  I've never thought about it, but with some of the new supposedly super-duper class d out there now, I'm getting a little curious.  ???

Also, the class d amps don't get along with the Horn/Heil crossover, so that's not an avenue to pursue for the two-way Horns. But maybe it could be used for a different speaker.  A class d bass signal feeding a Crown could be a treat.



Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on November 09, 2017, 12:08:45 PM
I see the 830667 is now going for $55.52 at PE.  Get two and free shipping (over $100).  

Madisound is almost $11 more and shipping isn't cheap.

It may be time for some holiday boom-boom (and a new pair of subs).  ;D


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Tablet Man on November 11, 2017, 07:57:17 AM
Finally got a pair of these puppies up and running.
Now should I be hearing everything through the subs or just the bass?
At the moment I can hear everything through them vocals, guitar etc.
Is this right?


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Tablet Man on November 11, 2017, 08:20:37 AM
Scrub that I think I've sussed it.
Had the Crown on bridge bypass instead of bridge lowpass doh!!!


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Tablet Man on May 23, 2018, 01:50:57 PM
Hi guys
How do I configure the crown for running just one sub?
The Mrs is getting pissed off after redecorating so one has to go  :(


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Luddite on May 27, 2018, 06:31:44 AM
The Mrs is getting pissed off after redecorating so one has to go  :(

Tell her that its been a decent run, and that you wish her well.

Oh, wait. You meant one subwoofer has to go, didn't you? Never mind.


Title: Re: Build the FFRSMark 4:20i. plans/parts here!
Post by: Henry on May 27, 2018, 07:42:15 PM
Hi guys
How do I configure the crown for running just one sub?
The Mrs is getting pissed off after redecorating so one has to go  :(

Take a look at the manual.  It runs in bridged mode and low pass.  The manual will tell you which output terminals to use.  Simple stuff.  :)

Oh, and you'll need a y-connector to sum the inputs.

UPDATE:
I found the manual.  Connect the summed input wire to the RCA input jack for channel 1.  Connect the speaker wires using the channel 1 positive output  for the positive speaker wire and the channel 2 positive output for the negative speaker wire.